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Compression and open throat singing. Need help.

Hi,

I have spent the past year expanding my vocal range to a point where I feel comfortable to start singing with compression, and I have been trying with vocal fry to minor succes but not slightly to where I want tge sound to be. After watching Ken's video I saw that it is smart to start with open throat singing and larynx positions first. He talks about starting at a low larynx position and to hold it down which is to me quite easy with an 'a' or 'ya' vowel. But vowels like 'ee' seems impossible without moving the larynx up while going up the scale.

Ultimately I would like to learn these position as a basis for compression. Is vocal fry really how to do it? If I ever want to start screaming am I practicing the right thing?

I'll have to sing rock n roll soon and I'd like it to sound a bit in between elvis and little richard. Not that I want to achieve this in a month or something.

To you who have learned these positions and compression, how did you do it? What did you practice and how often? How long did it take from a certain point?

Thanks for your time,

Yuri

Comments

  • HuduVuduHuduVudu Posts: 1,145Moderator, Premium, 2.0 PRO
    Ultimately I would like to learn these position as a basis for compression.
    Learning these positions is essential for good singing whether you are using compression or not. NEVER forget that distortion is really dangerous for your voice not understanding and doing it incorrectly can cost you heavily.
    Is vocal fry really how to do it?
    No
    If I ever want to start screaming am I practicing the right thing?
    If you are practicing vocal fry ... no.
    ... how did you do it?
    We follow the way that Ken teaches it.
    What did you practice and how often?
    Scales as a light work out one hour day five to six days a week. If you are relatively new and you get the grande idea that you will double or triple the workout time to get faster results, STOP, don't do that. That would be equivalent of lifting weights three hours a day six days a week. Not only is it counter-productive it is dangerous so, just don't do it. This is a marathon not a sprint.
    How long did it take from a certain point?
    I really depends on a lot of things. Your overall health, your age, your musical background, your ability to adapt to the techniques. Getting to safe distortion even if you have everything stacked in your favor could take a year or more. You do not want to shortcut this process, the consequences can be catastrophic.

    Here are some videos that I think could be helpful and are relevant:





  • BluemanBlueman Posts: 6Member
    edited March 19
    Thanks for your reply. But it still doesn't give me a good view of what I need to practice to get these larynx positions(for other vowels) and when ready, "lean in to the sound" as Ken states. I know you can create compression with the diaphram, physically I just don't understsnd what needs to happen where in the body. Ken's "hold back the air" analogy helps a bit, but still leaves me clueless.
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Posts: 5232.0 PRO
    @Blueman one thing if you haven't done it, to help with all the analogies: don't just think: "he wants me to hold back the air". try to really experience what this could mean, as in, go as deep into the setting as possible. try which muscles are responsible for the movements in the area. you will find certain positions or feelings that work better while you play with those sensations. you can then try to establish it with practice. it takes time though and of course there's the risk of going down the wrong direction. the course would be the safest path. but this forum here is good as a sounding board for how well you are doing, too
  • BluemanBlueman Posts: 6Member
    Thanks I guess I was already following the right line then. I am trying to get of of vocal fry when I am trying to think about compression(Though it would be nice to know where compression actually happens since if it's not the falsetto then I don't know where). I indeed don't have a lot of money so the free lessons will have to do. One more thing though, should you be able to control the laryngeal positions before you learn to compress air or after. And I have been doing this for a while, if I do suddenly get a really distorted sound, should I back of from it and ease into it over the course of a few months?
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Posts: 5232.0 PRO
    @Blueman , for the distortion and whether or not it is safe, best to post a recording. then we can check it for you! for your reference, controlling the larynx begins when you start the course and compression only several months after, or much later. so first you need to sort out some basics before you can really get into that
  • HuduVuduHuduVudu Posts: 1,145Moderator, Premium, 2.0 PRO
    I am trying to get of of vocal fry
    DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!! This is not safe and is not part of anything Ken teaches.

    I REALLY suggest that you fully watch the videos that I linked. You are taking pieces from all over the place and trying to fuse them into something useful, this will not provide you with any good results. Start your work with the first video. You need to let go of distortion, until you have FULLY mastered the basics just like @Klaus_T suggested. You can't even understand distortion unless you understand the basics.
  • BluemanBlueman Posts: 6Member
    The basics being? I have watched these videos. These replies are great and I hate to criticise the way you are answering but you seem to assume I get what you are saying when you can be much more clear. I have watched most of the videos, they were not clear enough so I came here. I get that they are not easy questions to answer. But for example throwing a term like "The basics" out, is pretty empty. Some of the questions I have asked previously can be answered with a simple yes or no.

    So without talking about compression for a moment; One of the questions I have been asking that I feel I still have no answer for is how to learn these laryngeal positions the best. Especially the 'ee' vowel.
  • HuduVuduHuduVudu Posts: 1,145Moderator, Premium, 2.0 PRO
    One of the questions I have been asking that I feel I still have no answer for is how to learn these laryngeal positions the best.
    Lowered as described here.



    If you have seen most of the videos then you know what the basics are because Ken calls them that and he reiterates them over and over again.
  • BluemanBlueman Posts: 6Member
    That is not very helpful I have to say. If they are so clear it's not hard to recite them once more.

    Plus I know *that* I have to learn the laryngeal positions, I'm asking for advice on *how* to.
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Posts: 5232.0 PRO
    @Blueman the basics are (according to how I see it):

    good posture
    correct breathing
    good support
    having established an open throat, or at least an idea of it
    "ping is king" & "it's the LAH"

    from your question it is unclear whether you want to use vocal fry, or get rid of it?
  • HuduVuduHuduVudu Posts: 1,145Moderator, Premium, 2.0 PRO
    I'm asking for advice on *how* to.
    Think of this ... how do you walk? If I was trying to teach you how to walk how would I do that? Your asking me to tell you what muscles you need to use. You are asking what sensations you need to feel. No one can answer those questions but you. When a baby is learning to walk they are watching their parents. The parents will help hold the baby up as the baby's brain tries to put together which muscles need to move and how to coordinate those muscles correctly for walking. Riding a bicycle is no different. I could give you a thousand examples but they all end up at the same place, YOU need to watch and then you need to imitate. Doing this enough times will cause ideas to sink in about how things work as you imitate good examples.

    I have Ken's course and I watch the videos over and over again. I will practice for weeks and struggle with something and then I remember that Ken talked about it in a video. I go to that video and watch it, and watch it, and watch it. I copy, I imitate, I experiment. I keep trying. Eventually I start to grasp what Ken is doing and I feel what he is feeling only personally to me with my muscles. When this happens my understanding gets better and when my understanding gets better my singing gets better. I often say, I can't reach inside your throat and manipulate the muscles so that you can understand how to do something.

    Don't fall into the trap of thinking that singing is easy. It isn't. There are very few good singers out there, and they have to work very hard to be good at it. It isn't easy. Very few people see the hard work that goes into the craft of singing we just see the result. If you are really curious about how much it takes well do some background research on Michael Jackson.

    This is my last post on this. You have no understanding of how difficult it is to do proper compression. You want it to be easy. I am sorry it is not. You seem very unwilling to do the necessary work that you need to do to build the basics to get where you want to go. I will say that KTVA WILL chart out the path for doing that but you need to do the work. And yes the free YouTube videos can provide you that information but you will need to do a lot of work to put it together. Ultimately it is up to you. If you are looking for the easy path then you will give up. If you really want to know then you will start the hard work of learning, and trust me even with the course you will work.
  • bindogbindog Posts: 25Pro, 2.0 PRO
    edited March 29
    @Blueman As a forum lurker (because i have the course and I don't practice properly, (which should be rectified soon)), i cannot warn you against the dangers of distortion and vocal fry enough!! Trust me on this.

    I sing probably once a week with a mate of mine, live, unplugged, in a local bar in my area, after quiz night, just for fun. Literally just messing around, we bring a guitar and we jam and people come join our table and sing along... no mics or amps so the tendency to oversing is large.

    It takes me one second (or less) of "distortion" or "fry" (stupid decisions trying to cover say Dave Grohl growling, instead of just singing the lyrics clean) and my voice is wiped out. One second. Then my notes are gone, and the rest of the evening just descends into vocal damage, force, and pain the next day.

    Last week i just sang clean, gentle, and controlled and no issues, the whole evening.

    Damaging your voice is not smart, take it from me.


    Listen to the guys and girls here, they know their stuff.
  • BluemanBlueman Posts: 6Member
    HuduVudu said:

    I'm asking for advice on *how* to.
    Think of this ... how do you walk? If I was trying to teach you how to walk how would I do that? Your asking me to tell you what muscles you need to use. You are asking what sensations you need to feel. No one can answer those questions but you. When a baby is learning to walk they are watching their parents. The parents will help hold the baby up as the baby's brain tries to put together which muscles need to move and how to coordinate those muscles correctly for walking. Riding a bicycle is no different. I could give you a thousand examples but they all end up at the same place, YOU need to watch and then you need to imitate. Doing this enough times will cause ideas to sink in about how things work as you imitate good examples.

    I have Ken's course and I watch the videos over and over again. I will practice for weeks and struggle with something and then I remember that Ken talked about it in a video. I go to that video and watch it, and watch it, and watch it. I copy, I imitate, I experiment. I keep trying. Eventually I start to grasp what Ken is doing and I feel what he is feeling only personally to me with my muscles. When this happens my understanding gets better and when my understanding gets better my singing gets better. I often say, I can't reach inside your throat and manipulate the muscles so that you can understand how to do something.

    Don't fall into the trap of thinking that singing is easy. It isn't. There are very few good singers out there, and they have to work very hard to be good at it. It isn't easy. Very few people see the hard work that goes into the craft of singing we just see the result. If you are really curious about how much it takes well do some background research on Michael Jackson.

    This is my last post on this. You have no understanding of how difficult it is to do proper compression. You want it to be easy. I am sorry it is not. You seem very unwilling to do the necessary work that you need to do to build the basics to get where you want to go. I will say that KTVA WILL chart out the path for doing that but you need to do the work. And yes the free YouTube videos can provide you that information but you will need to do a lot of work to put it together. Ultimately it is up to you. If you are looking for the easy path then you will give up. If you really want to know then you will start the hard work of learning, and trust me even with the course you will work.
    The point is not that I am asking you how to walk. It's that I'm asking you how to *learn* to walk. There is a distinct difference. You have answered the question for me a bit. But not fully.

    I think a good student knows how to revise on what they learnt before. Surely you can remember something that put you in the right direction? What's a skill if you can't explain how you do it?

    Even if I was teaching someone to walk I could still explain what I did to learn to walk.
  • SophiaSophia Posts: 2332.0 PRO
    @Blueman I think the problem is that there are two parts to what you are asking. The first part is getting the basics of singing into your muscle memory, and Ken gives a lot of that (if not all of it) in his free videos.

    The second part, about the proper compression technique, isn't taught until a late stage of his paid course, at a point where students have got those basics down, and have developed strength and stamina. We can't explain that part to you. Even if someone here was inclined to disrespect Ken enough to pirate the information that he asks payment for (because he gained it through decades of work, learning, and experience, and that has value), it would be removed.
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Posts: 5232.0 PRO
    edited April 1
    @Blueman you said: "What's a skill if you can't explain how you do it?" there are lots of skills that cannot be taught through explanations alone. singing is one of them. Even Ken will not be able to teach you anything without you DOING it on a regular basis. the proof is in the fact that you know the videos but still don't know how to do it. do you think we can explain it better than Ken? if you don't believe us, try to find an explanation online for, let's say, how to properly support (appoggio). there are plenty of words written about it, but none of them are useful if you are not studying it yourself
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