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Hows My progress - Journey - Open Arms Cover Vocality

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@Ken Tamplin @highmtn @doc_ramadani @Wigs @DannyOc3an @mysti @HuduVudu @DogMeat @bentk @NickW @RandyB @shining @Chris82 @LumiMoon @Rick_amateur @heidianita @jmstanle @Elara @sjonrokz4u @Klaus_T @d1g2w3 @Diego @LoneWolfRogue @cwcw @sagemacg @Sina and anyone I have missed out.

How's my progress after 2 years 2 months?

Been working on this song for a while now in the background, recorded it in 3 parts 4 half steps down and keen for honest feedback is it beginning to work for me?



George

Comments

  • RandyBRandyB 2.0 PRO Posts: 366
    George, my critique of this is basically the same as the last “assignment” you posted. Your support is lacking and you’re quite breathy. Review the lessons on support and also think about “sucking the notes” up and into your throat rather that pushing the air out. This may also help improve your pitch, which is very spotty. You also sound rather covered on your sound. Smile a bit more to brighten up the tone and if I had to guess, you probably need to drop your jaw more (like I mentioned about the last video you posted). I don’t want to bog you down with too much information, so I think the top priority should be support and airflow restriction.

    Happy singing,
    Randy
  • sjonrokz4usjonrokz4u 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,276
    I appreciate you asking for my feedback unfortunately I couldn’t get it to play
  • sjonrokz4usjonrokz4u 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,276
    Ok got it to work. Third times the charm. I agree with randy keep searching for that support and I think that’ll help with the pitch. You picked a hard song to sing in any key
  • DannyOc3anDannyOc3an 2.0 PRO Posts: 324
    edited June 29
    Hello George

    In fact it's a tough song...

    I can hear you start with a mixed voice which leans to the head side more than the chest side, and in fact this song is better suited in mixed/head voice due to the high notes and the style of the song. You are right on choosing this register for this song, since that's what the song requires to convey its feeling. You are right on choosing that softness of the volume and trying to convey the emotion of the lyrics. I can feel you are singing the lyrics with the type of emotion the song needs

    However there are 2 important things you may want to look into


    1. CHEST-HEAD-MIX

    I can hear your head voice is not full developed yet, to the point it is strong and matches the tonal quality of the chest resonance... Vol 4 trains you for that but it takes at least some good 4 or 5 months to grow that "head ping"... And then you move to vol 5 and only then you begin to grow the pasaggio, your mixed notes, again some nice few months on that; assuming you got the basics right.

    During the first minute of the song, your chest is saving you from collapsing the tonal quality, the chest voice portion you use is what's giving some strenght in the tone; and then from the 0:44 minute mark, you try to hit those higher notes by stretching some chest, even if it's a bit, that bit is what's saving you from "breaking the register" that's why you raise the volume a bit in order to allow the chest to kick in, since in the workouts we are used to raise the volume to hit high notes with chest. However, neither the beginning nor this portion of your song are 100% chest, you are mixing with head, which is not a bad idea... BUT... your "mixed notes" for THESE note values, in this portion of the song, are not developed yet, since in order to develop those, as I said, much time is needed on Vols 4 & 5. After growing the head and the mixed voice with time and practice you will find how these notes will come easier, you won't need to raise the volume to hit them with some chest, they will just "be there" effortlessly. It's like you will be able to stay inside your pasaggio, stay in the bridge area, playing around with those notes at will; while up to Vol 3 you only learn to go over the pasaggio quickly; we're used to "cross the bridge running" so we don't fall, while after working out Vol 5 you will be able to STAY in the bridge, fool around, catch some fish smoking a cigarrete if you want. You will be able to chose how much chest, how much head you want to use for every single note in this area, and hit those with a nice power. This area will not be unstable and will be reached with ease, not needing to pull chest. That's the goal. and that's what growing the mixed voice is all about, but that comes with patience and some nice looong months in Vols 4, 5. I can't do it yet with the precision this requires, it demands sooo much time and focus..

    Now, from the 1:00 minute mark, in the chorus, since it goes even higher, you are forced to bridge to full head voice. If you listen closely, in this moment you lower the volume a lot so you can bridge to head, to a FULL HEAD, not a mixed head. And there's where you can tell your head voice is not grown yet, because you can listen how those notes are wobbling, unstable, you try to pull some chest but it's not chest what's required, it's a strong head voice what's required up there, and because the "full head voice" training is missing, you find some blank space mixed with a tiny bit of chest, it's like you're trying to ask someone for something and they are refusing to give it to you, you try to find the head notes and they aren't there yet..... So you recur to your best bet which is to sing a soft chesty voice which isn't enough to hit that high pitch. This is what makes this song difficult. A very strong head and mixed is required. Good news is that Ken is so cool that he will train you for precisely this stuff with Vols 4 and 5, but you will need some patience and daily work in those volumes without leaving Vol 3 behind. All three volumes should be trained, ideally daily. Only then you will find this missing notes..

    This idea of training head and mixed, takes me to the other thing you should be aware of:

    2. SUPPORT

    Here, there are 2 things:

    1. First, before you even begin doing Vol 4, or if you try it, you will find out that a VERY nice strength in the abdomen is required.... There's no other way that those ultra high notes Ken makes you train in Vol 4 could be reached without a nice strength from the abdomen. And of course, controlling that strength WITH its countermeasures, which are a good cut back of the air, a strong SLOW RELEASE, and good pushing down of the diaphragm so you don't overbloat your cords with pressure. If you apply the strength needed to hit those high notes, without controlling the air output, you will be out of air in less than a second.

    Which leads us to our good old friend, called support... Now this one it's kind of tricky, since many people lean towards favoring the slow release, the cutting back of the air, the nice control of how slow the air should be expelled, which in fact is THE MAIN focus we all should have; but there should be an extra ingredient which is the strength from the abdomen, which is what you "hit" "hit" or "bare down" your abdominal area with none, few or a lot of strength in order to have some power, so you learn to provide power and control it at the same time depending on the song. And on high notes, as those on Vol 4, MORE power is needed, but as well, more CONTROL needed to COUNTER that power and make it last. This is what I tried to convey in the post I have around the forums on support, and there I explain how to get this power with the situp exercise and then how to control it with all the countermeasures most of us know. I linked a video too which is the Vol 1 video Ken sings "superstition" in different degrees of power and he placed some text cues while doing it which are really helpful to undesrtand this strength concept. You may check it out. This leads me to the next one:





  • DannyOc3anDannyOc3an 2.0 PRO Posts: 324
    edited June 29
    2. This right here is what our friends pointed out by listening to your song: Your sound is on the "throatty" side more than it's on the diaphgram side... Lacks support. A supported sound, will be thick, and "guttural", while a throatty sound is just that... throatty.. you can hear how it's produced with power from the throat, it's kind of shallow, metallic, weak, just as it sounds when you speak in daily life... When you speak you do so "from the throat" and if you raise that volume, it's only a louder throat sound, no more than that. While in the other hand, a supported sound is a completely different animal. It sounds thick, round, deep, and the main thing you notice is that your throat is 100% relaxed and is not intervening AT ALL in producing ANY power to hold the sound. The throat feels as if it was just a tunnel, a passive, inert tunnel inside which the river of strenght from your abdomen is passing through. You must make it you life's mission to find this sound.

    Now I can help you pinpoint this so you feel what I'm talking about. Listen to the first verses of your song. Listen to the part where you sing "Here in the dark.... feeling you heartbeat" that line is the sound you want. Try it again and notice how it is coming from your diaphgram. But then listen to the very next words "with mineeee", that "mine" goes to your throat. Then you kind of go back to a good diaphgragmatic sound and lose it a bit to the throat but nothing so noticeable. But then, from the 0:44 mark, when higher notes come along, you my friend go to full throat and we lose you to your throat during the rest of the song, since those are HIGH NOTES. This is what I tried to underline in my post too, that everytime we try to go higher, we have a tendency to use the throat to provide that extra power. That's exactly when more abdominal strength is required, so the sound keeps coming from that abdominal area, and that's when this "strength" thing comes into play. It's the medicine, the remedy for killing the throatty sound. The higher you go, the stronger the tendency to involve the throat, so the stronger your abdominal strength should be, so it kills that tendency. Those are opposites. Think of this in those terms. High note = tendency to use the throat. Strength in the abdomen = kills the throat intervention. So, high note = more strength in the abdomen. Throat vs Strenght in the abdomen. That's the name of the game. Now, the very good news is that there's a good way to find this strength. Some people are naturals, and know how to do this, some others arrive to this feeling some other way, but the way I found it, is the way Ken tries to teach it, and it's by doing the sit-up. Dude, I was in a very similar place as you, and I went back to this exercise and it helped me a lot. I go in detail about this in my post so give it a look. But I can throw some of this here too: Essentially, you lay on the ground. Do a situp singing a scale while putting your mind on producing the sound with the abdomen, not the throat. Then do the next scale but without doing the situp, trying to recreate the same feeling you had in the situp. Then do the next scale with a situp, then the next one without it, and so on until you find how to produce the sound with your abdomen, and not with your throat. Also remember to fully relax the abdomen between scales so it doesn't lock up. I worked on that for WEEKS. I even used to be standing up, and doing a situp movement (leaning forward and going back up) EVERYTIME I felt the sound going to my throat. So I carried the same feeling I had on the floor, to the standing up position. And again and again until I finally could produce most of the scales from the abdomen, not from the throat. For me, this worked like magic. Hopefully this will work for you too, and you kill this problem once and for all. Even to this day, I still find myself every now and then going to the throat and I just have to remember that "sit-up kind of strength". It's a subtle pulling in or baring down of the abdomen that gives the power. Watch the password protected video I linked in my post and watch how Ken does this. And find that feeling by doing the situp as I described. You learn to control it and cut back the air at the same time. I'm still working on this, this takes time. Tons of time. But it's key. At least this is the way I came to this, and I share it with you.

    George, I see you are in the course for quite a long time, almost as long as I, of course we still are learning to walk; since applying these things correctly takes time. We are still far away from flying. But we are patient and dedicated persons. This is why I went to lenghts with this reply, because I think it's very important to ingrain the basic support stuff in our methodology, since without it we are going nowhere. As I said I was in the same place as you, I can relate and I would have loved if someone could tell me these things, this clearly, but I had to put in the effort to understand what Ken is trying to teach, going deep in those exercises he teaches, reviewing ALL the material, videos, webinars, youtube stuff, etc, and most of all working my arse off with the provided exercises such as that one of the sit-up to finally find that supported sound vs the throatty sound. Haven't had the luck to book a session with him yet, but I do feel all this stuff has served me well and I feel I'm making progress, finally. It's something one feels inside. As a side note, I stopped doing songs right now, I'm working to embed the support and the open throat with vowel mods by scales, by working along the workouts and some skypes available, so my old muscle memory of doing songs doesn't intervene when the time comes to practice songs with this new habits... I'm that patient... Other people may not be as patient and it's ok, but with this I try to encourage you to fill yourself with patience and work to find these things. For what I can tell you are doing an ok job in lower notes, your support is there, comes and goes; you only lose it to your throat in higher notes which is why I feel what I told you will help (song is high too). Try it, give time to it, I'm sure that if you approach this subject with these things in mind, you will find these AHA moments, as I did after +1 year of doing it wrong... Go back to the situp, revisit those videos, take a look to some videos I uploaded in my post around this, anything, but put your mind into this. I shared with you how I did it the most straighforward and easy way (the sit-up). Perhaps you find this some other way. I tried my best to give detail here, wouldn't have done this if I would feel you won't be able to find this as well, or if I would feel you're not the type of person who can do this. It's been 2+ years and you're still around, this says a lot of you, that's how I know you will do this. You'll see it's easy. You will feel it inside. Take your time. Keep us posted!

    All the best dude!

    PS.
    To wrap it up: This song is high. For hitting those high notes, you should train your head and mixed voice. To train those registers, abdominal strength and good support is very needed. This strength/support will help you kill the throatty sound too. So, you go back to learn the strength concept, fine tune your support, then when that's embedded no matter how long it takes, you work vol 3 and 4, then after several months you then go to vols 3, 4, 5; and then after more months you can try these type of songs and if everything is right, you will kill it. This woud be the right route to take B)
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @RandyB @sjonrokz4u

    Thanks for listening guys think my main issues is on the higher parts of the song, that part has improved since starting to learn the song but not enough to get all the notes clean.

    Yes a tough song indeed, trying to stay positive, focus an review support, @highmtn Bob is there any advice you could give me on support I know your pretty knowledgeable in that area that might help?

    George🙂
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,852
    edited June 29
    hey George, i think what you could try to do, it works wonders for me: i re-visit the previous volumes every now and then, and i will do a few weeks of "throwback", one week starters, one week vol 1, one week vol 2 (i am on 3). you can also throw in the vowel section of vol 3 for a week.

    whenever i come back to doing vol 3 after a few weeks, i notice a lot of improvement. i think because it is much easier to implement vol 3 concepts on slower scales.

    also, revisit the vol 3 lesson video "34. Huffing Exercise 2 video" and do it along with Ken. that really helped me. think of that "huffing" as being your engine
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @DannyOc3an

    Many thanks for your extensive input fully understand what your saying and happy to accept parts of my voice not ready yet and requires further training. Will continue to work vol3 and 4 for good few months gonna do that anyway. A little bit of reassurance goes a long way when your doing something for a long time without a regular vocal coach to mentor through. Sometimes doubts creep in what you have explained helps and reassures I am on the right track.

    Kinda had in the back of my mind when posting this song parts of my voice is not fully developed yet. The lower part beginning song felt comfortable vocally didn’t realise was in a mixed voice, as I went up tried best to negotiate higher notes tough nut to break. Karaoke version backing track allowed 4 half steps down. If did it in the original key definitely expose more fluty head voice.

    Awesome detail on how I negotiated this song yes higher part was where the construction site is 🙂. I wondered why I didn’t notice a lot Open Arms covers. Not afraid to give a tough song a go a lot to learn from it, will look to much easier songs from now on until mix and head voice are fixed.

    Support gonna go back and review sit-up exercise and some of the other tutorial need not afraid to step back to go forward. Danny your a great 👍 mate for taking the time to write this post fully appreciate the time taken and feel much better about my singing progress.

    Also thanks to @RandyB and @sjonrokz4u for their input on support.

    George

  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @Klaus_T

    Yes 👍 considered going back to previous volumes just a quick review, just to refresh pointers and reset bad habits. Especially support just to make sure I have the best use of support available.

    On volume 3 huffing workout just about make through now without a micro pause, another point on support is my physical condition in good shape might need to adjust my diet just to make sure got enough energy to last through vol3 and song practice. amazed how much physical strength is required.

    Thanks for your input

    George
  • RandyBRandyB 2.0 PRO Posts: 366
    George, please don’t take this the wrong way, but I feel you lack proficiency at several foundational elements of building your voice. I highly recommend you revert to volume one and correct your support/airflow and brightness issues. Working the higher volumes right now is giving you too many “rabbits” to chase. I don’t think you’re ready for the demands of those volumes and continuing to do them will cause a snowballing of problems.
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @RandyB

    Will consider your advice will be reviewing support and the likes anyway but gonna continue on vol 3 and 4 for the moment.

    George
  • RandyBRandyB 2.0 PRO Posts: 366
    You’re certainly free to do as you wish, but I strongly feel this approach is akin to trying to build a skyscraper without a solid foundation. I’m curious to hear what others will think.
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
  • RandyBRandyB 2.0 PRO Posts: 366
    I have read his post. And you’ll notice he says to work on strength/support until it’s “embedded no matter how long it takes”. He’s telling you what I’m telling you, Get the basics down before working on increasingly harder exercises. @DannyOc3an, am I representing your thoughts accurately? I don’t want to misrepresent you and I know you offered George a lot of information. But I believe the overarching thrust of your assessment is that a good foundation must be created before trying to build upon it.
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @RandyB

    Gonna continue with vol3 and 4 with the view to reviewing support thanks for your advice
  • DannyOc3anDannyOc3an 2.0 PRO Posts: 324
    It all comes down to how well everyone learns... Actually Vols 1, 2 and 3 basic Lah scales are almost the same thing with the difference being the speed, once you know to vowel mod higher and higher. I try not to look at this as Vol 1 being "lesser" or a set back, as a matter of fact if you notice when Ken runs the scales with students in Skype sessions, they go in a kind of Vol 1/2 speed, and even slower, they don't go full speed, even with advanced students and that's how they can pinpoint the nuances. When I was aware I was having some trouble with support in the sense of favoring an unsupported throaty sound, I was in Vol 3. In fact I thought I was doing a fine job. I wasn't aware. Then when someone listened to me and pointed out the unsupported sound, for the first time I was aware of that difference. Then I didn't think in the terms of going back to vol 1 or 2, I went back to ZERO for a while. I re-watched the material and tried the sit up. When trying the sit up you are not working along any volume, you're just doing a scale at a very low speed, it doesn't even has to be at an increasing pitch, it could be the same scale over and over. The idea is to learn the supported strength. Here the key was to produce the first "Lah" from the abdomen and allow the ensuing Ah's to come from that area, and grow full awareness around the difference between that and a sound originating from the chest or throat. That's why I said it helps to alternate a situp and a scale without it until that awareness grows. I stopped for a while doing the regular workouts. I was kind of "out of format". It didn't matter which volume I was, in that moment I wasn't doing any. Not even went to vol 1 starters. I was focused only on learning this specific task. So I spent the same 30+ minutes on the floor just experimenting, feeling, and standing up to see how I can do the same thing but on my feet. Then I randomly tried some higher pitch scales to see how it plays out, and sometimes I had to go back to the floor. See, it was an experimental phase I put myself through. I wasn't doing any Volume.

    Ideally, this is what I should have done the very first weeks after buying the course, if I had payed attention, or better said, if I had the awareness of how missing out on this material Ken laid out first would have that kind of impact later on. In fact I remember having done the situp in the very first days, and having done it with an unsupported sound, and thinking "ok, exercise is over, yeah I felt something but ok, what's next..." and moving on. I didn't understand. Only understood it after 1+ year when I got back to it with more "vocal awareness". Now after learning that feeling, the correct one, personally I tried Vol 3 workouts, directly, to see how it plays out. I should have tried Vol 1 ones but I went to 3 since that was what I was doing. It was hard. It required a laser type undivided attention to do those with the mechanism I just learned. It was like you just learned to walk and someone pushes you out of a moving bus and you hit the ground running. Found myself leaning forward and back almost in every scale so I "catch" that feeling, it was always going to the throat. I even had to leave pitch and vowel mods to random luck just to focus on the support thing. It's not ideal, at all. So I slowed it down. Sometimes slow scales, sometimes fast ones. Maybe you can pull it off, maybe you need to lower the speed. Maybe you mix this. As long as you don't lose it. It is something you feel inside. So I can recommend you to first FIND it... Then see how you can best apply it. You can try some vol 1 scales, then some vol 2 then some vol 3 in the spirit of experimenting. There's no rush. And see where you can apply this best. @Klaus_T has a strong point here. His recommendation is spot on. It doesn't matter the label of the volume, you must look at this as a whole, it's your voice, your support, your vowel mods, every single thing you don't ingrain will have a cost in the future, and do whatever you need to ingrain properly the right things, no matter what it takes. See, I went back to Zero for a while. It depends on how well you learn, but be sure to lay a strong foundation, that's the ultimate goal
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @DannyOc3an @RandyB @Klaus_T

    It did feel it was disaster having to move back to Volume 1 a huge set back didn’t want to rely on 1 opinion no offence @RandyB kinda understand what’s being said, if i do a reset like to try @Klaus_T and possibly keep vol4 running occasionally to keep brightening that head voice and huffing exercises.

    @DannyOc3an agree with you were on vol3 didn’t really notice until someone pointed out. Feel like vol3 was going well and noticed improvements across the board. Hitting up to g#5 in the scales and strength through register break was strengthened.

    Unsure what to do where to go!
  • sjonrokz4usjonrokz4u 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,276
    I haven’t had a chance to read Danny’s post yet but I just wanted to say don’t get discouraged. I’ve only been in my singing trip a couple years and I came from a musical background and singing background vox. Don’t get discouraged by this. I’ve been working on and off with don’t stop believing. It’s been a complete struggle. The song you chose I’ve heard a couple people try around here. People that have been singing for years. It’s a tough song. Keep hacking away at it piece by piece and over time it will come. Stay positive and continue to slowly achieve little accomplishments over time. Don’t let it get you down man
  • DannyOc3anDannyOc3an 2.0 PRO Posts: 324
    I agree with @sjonrokz4u , that's a tough song because of the register; it's high mix and head for the usual folk who is a baritone. What I said is that in order to sing those high songs, we should train Vol 4 and 5, where much strength is needed, so you have to really focus on support. You were fine before the pasaggio, yeah a little wobbly with the throat and support but nothing bad. In higher notes, there's when this support thing plays a very huge role.

    See, I can’t tell what to do.. neither of us.. since everyone is different and have different needs and learn things differently.. What I could do at best is to share what works for me, how I do it, how I did it, how I understand it only if it’s something I think I have a grasp on and have felt inside it’s working, because there’re many things I don’t know yet.. and then it’s up to the people who resonate with that to try it and see if it works for them too… What I can assure is that I tried to keep it as close to the material as I can, what I suggest is stuff that is inside KTVA, I haven’t take a look to other sources tbh; and even then everyone has different ways of interpreting these things and arrive to the exact same feelings by using another route, which is great, the goal is to get there.. In the end what DOES work is to be self conscious, self regulating, becoming introspective. As an example, if people point out that someone’s sound is dark or covered, we suggest to brighten it up and open it up, but it’s up to the person to then listen to their own sound when they are alone, at their home or wherever, and FIND that brightness people talked about, and then learn how does it feel in their own mouth and their own throat when singing bright and how does it feel when singing covered. It’s an inner job, a thing everybody must do in their own time, with no distractions; only then we can “find” the things they talk about, in our body. It’s the same with everything. Support, mods, open throat, etc… People can read as much as they want but if in their solitude, they don’t lay down to experiment, to dig deep, to feel, to try one thing, then another, and so on, they may miss out some things. We here are bound to gain this inner awareness since this is an online course, we all would love to have Ken in front of us the whole time kicking our butt and slapping our faces very hard everytime we need to correct something, but we can’t. I guess what I’m trying to say is take some time to feel inside how your sound works, where does it come from, how can you make it stronger, softer, without collapsing your throat, without running out of air, using as a guidance everything Ken says of some fellow friends around here say. Personally I’ve found the situp helps with most of this stuff, but everyone is different. I haven’t heard anything else from you, I haven’t heard a scale or other stuff you’ve done, my only reference is this song, which is a difficult one. You may well be doing a very good job in the lower chest register. I don’t know that. In any case I can tell you that when I realized what I was doing wrong, I corrected it, and it was a matter of a FEW WEEKS and I was back on Vol 3 up and running. I started the course in october 2018, and I think it was October/2019 when I went back to the sit up exercise and then by December/2019 I was already doing it right in Vol 3 with the high speed and everything. During october, november and december, I was mixing some slow and some fast scales, most of them from Vol 3, in no particular order. So it wasn’t like a whole year I had to go through or a set back, it was only a couple of months I took to correct this particular thing and because I have been more than a year working on the other concepts, then it became easy to come back to where I was, this time with a better technique. Now, thanks to those couple of months I have been able to make progress. It’s as if you suggest someone to take the Better Pitch series to improve pitch. They may do it for some 3 or 4 weeks and then never do it again, they’ve learned pitch, forever. It’s the same. And mind that I’m a slow learner, many people find these things very fast… That’s MY particular experience, so I share it with you, so you may relate to it or take a tiny bit from this. Be introspective, listen to your sound, record yourself, let the sound be your guide… And if you have to take a week or two to fine tuning this support thing, then it’s no big deal… Chances are you’re way ahead from where I was back then... If you feel like you are comfortable in Vol 3 then go ahead, but take some free days to fine tune this support thing so it serves you well when the time comes to go to high notes without straining.. Again, be introspective B)
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,852
    edited June 29
    It did feel it was disaster having to move back to Volume 1 a huge set back

    i regularily re-visit the older volumes and don't see it as a setback at all, quite the contrary. it is a chance to let the stuff sink in.
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    Well bit the bullet tried volume 1 tutorial videos, when it got to sit up exercises on the floor and tried it standing up it became really apparent where I was going wrong a few triads felt really comfortable, bright sound and opened up to higher chest notes without that strain when doing the high parts in songs. It felt much better and doing the triad slower helps a lot.

    Not a magic cure but this is how you do it and this is the result. Best way could explain controlled even supply of air over the chords. If I have a bad day tend to sometimes overreact to situations and more or less it’s never as bad as first anticipated.

    Learned a lot reviewing vowel mods, my progress since starting the KTVA course and it was a positive experience!

  • DannyOc3anDannyOc3an 2.0 PRO Posts: 324
    edited June 30
    Great news George B)
    The deeper you go into that material the better singer you will become, is that simple... this is the same for all of us... We all need to do what you did, no matter how "advanced" we all think we are, revisiting and practicing the basic stuff only strengthens our foundation. Only positive things come from doing this!! Dig deep into that situp stuff dude it really helps, spend time. Do a few everyday if you may. Ingrain muscle memory. Do them exactly as Ken says :blush:
  • DogMeatDogMeat 2.0 PRO Posts: 437
    Wow so much great feedback here already, that it is a good lesson for all of us. I would also say that lack of proper support shows in different kind of inconsistancies through the song. I know pitch has been a struggle for you, and you have certainly made progress. This is such a hard song, that when you hit the chorus you really need to open your arms and put some power into it. You took it pretty easy, and it shows.
    Anyway i think you have made a solid progress, and thanks for the update buddy. Keep up the good work :)
  • DogMeatDogMeat 2.0 PRO Posts: 437
    Klaus_T said:



    also, revisit the vol 3 lesson video "34. Huffing Exercise 2 video" and do it along with Ken. that really helped me. think of that "huffing" as being your engine

    I created a slowed down versions of the huffing excersise, and it took me thought the full speed 3 weeks or so. I started from 80% speed, and when it felt easy i moved to 85, then 90, 95 and eventually to 100%. Doing is slower versions gave time to concentrate doing it right and develope the skills and muscles.

  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    edited June 30
    @DogMeat

    Hi Ari

    Noticed that on volume 1 tutorial huffing slowed down helps reset the technique and being honest thought about revising previous volumes in the past but never got round to it until now.

    Everyone has got their own ways getting to the same goal and reckon trick is slow it now and then just to make sure we’re getting it correct.

    Made ton progress on pitch, picking up melody lines much better now getting more notes. But definitely gonna work on support it’s already helping.

    George :)

  • DogMeatDogMeat 2.0 PRO Posts: 437
    I know what you mean @Vocality . With time everything just gets easier. Support is one of the things that helps with pretty much all areas. Everything just gets easier :)
  • ElaraElara Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 200
    Going back to Volume 1 is no disaster. You could never go past Volume 1, but if you did everything in it correctly, your voice would grow. Volume 1 could be its own singing course.

    Aim to become a Master of Volume 1. You could think of it as an achievement to unlock. Do you regard it as an introductory set of exercises to get through as quickly as possible? BZZT, no achievement for you! Do you understand every nuance of the lessons? Do you understand why you are doing what you do in this volume? Do you "get" for an undeniable fact how support feels, how it affects your voice, and how to control it as you move around your range? Can you feel what the vowel mods are doing to the air pressure in your throat? Have the muscle structures that control bridging smoothly grown, because you've given them enough training time to do so?

    If you truly feel confident saying you are a Master of Volume 1, then you should feel amazing about your singing future, because from here on, it's going to just get better and better due to the rock-solid foundation you've built.

    If you don't feel like you can honestly say that you have mastered Volume 1, then please spend more time on it until you can. It will be the absolute best use of your singing training time, and something you can be proud of achieving.
  • RandyBRandyB 2.0 PRO Posts: 366
    edited June 30
    @Elara, thank you for conveying the point I was trying to make so succinctly.

    @Vocality, there is a huge difference between simply asserting you’re on Volumes 3 & 4 versus demonstrating the requisite technical ability to have graduated to Volumes 3 & 4. The latter contains a tacit implication you have adequate command of the material in Volumes 1 & 2–you have graduated to the higher level. If you can’t demonstrate command of the foundational material, it’s imprudent to “skip” ahead because you won’t be able to properly perform more difficult material. Why move to Volumes 3 & 4 when you can’t pass the Volume 1 exam? In this instance, the best way (perhaps the only way) to move forward is to “repeat the grade” until you can pass the exam. And as Elara pointed out, this WILL NOT be a regression because you never actually progressed to the higher level. If you’re goal is to build the best voice possible, pass the “tests” for each volume before continuing. Anyone can assert he’s on whatever volume he wants. But it will be glaringly obvious when he sings if he deserves to be at that level.
  • ElaraElara Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 200
    @Vocality I just temporarily removed your video post, only because I need to check whether it's okay to post it in the public section of the forums. I'll let you know.

    I wanted to just say that I wasn't thinking of Vocality specifically in the use of "you" in my post above. "You" was every student. :) Vocality, you have always worked hard, and you can do this. Don't feel discouraged by perceived setbacks. All they mean is that you have discovered a problem, and are now working to fix it. That's forward motion.
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    Thanks for everyone’s help gonna revert back to Vol1 to sort out support issues, the overriding factor here is to move back and don’t seem to be getting the results desired in song application. I need to sort out the root cause prior to moving on.

    Suppose all the progress made will carry forward as move through vol 1.

    Vocality
  • sjonrokz4usjonrokz4u 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,276
    I’d like to hear you post something a little less demanding than open arms
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    Sorry I doubted the advice this was top notch advice from everyone and hopefully everyone aspire to great singing will learn learn from this thread.

    My mind set was I am doing great don’t need to go back to volume 1, but there was underlying issues that were affecting my singing and couldn’t quite put my finger on what was incorrect!.

    Sometimes you need to bust my chops just to get through to me thanks @RandyB your able to demonstrate how to get to this high chest registers and sound 👍 great sorry I doubted you!.

    Also had time to digest the information put in front of me now really positive mindset going forward @DannyOc3an amazing detail on the performance with good pointer where diaphragmatic support was present a where it was not. I will never forget diaphragmatic support again it will be in top priority in my mindset going forward.

    George

  • RandyBRandyB 2.0 PRO Posts: 366
    @Vocality George,
    It was never about busting chops, it was about helping you right your course. I like to think of the advice offered in Ken’s videos and through his many students who have experienced the material as my GPS navigation to the best voice I can build. I want to know when I’ve made a wrong turn and have GPS re-route me so I can reach my destination. I’ve recently had several foundational things I haven’t gotten quite right pointed out to me by a much higher level student. My posture wasn’t always the best; I’d let my chest fall, jut my head forward, lift my head when hitting higher pitches. I wasn’t always taking big enough of a diaphragmatic breath. I wasn’t always maintaining support on the back end of scales and subsequently going flat. I wasn’t using the note prior to the top note to engage the support necessary to reach the top note. My jaw was carrying too much tension. I wasn’t always modding properly. My “lah” was a bit too covered and classical-sounding...I could go on...The point is, I don’t consider working on these foundational elements as a regression. I view them as the most efficient path to reach my destination and I hope you do too.

    Happy singing,
    Randy
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @RandyB

    At the start when you said move back to vol 1 it was like your kidding right really wasn’t sure whether or not trust in what you said. I did know there was an issue and didn’t think it required a move back to vol 1. In the back of my mind RandyB has a really good voice and brilliant upper chest range I have to listen and consider what he’s saying (even if didn’t want to) :D
    Thank you persisting with me you all ganged up to me with all the information, had no option to give in to the advice B) and greatly appreciated.

    George
  • WigsWigs Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 4,313
    George hearing this from you was incredible! We have been doing this together since I started and you have really managed to grow your voice alot. Alot of the feed back is valid and true and you are experienced enough to understand. We put ourselves out there baring everything and its incredibly brave of everyone doing it.

    Ill answer your questions :smile:

    You have made excellent progress! You really understand your comfortable range which I think has come from all the time you spend improving your pitch. Understanding notes values and how they feel play a big part in understanding what you are actually capable of. This song in this key was right at your limit, you held on just enough to get through it but it was amazing to hear you hit notes in a way I haven't heard from you before. You got tense in the moment and yes there is room to open up and strengthen the sound, but Im so proud that you have control. You have made progress in cutting back your air and compressing the sound, much better vowels and spaces, your tone and pitch continue to get better when you really apply your self for these progress videos and your usable range has expanded quite a bit.

    If you continue the hard work, sorting issues and weaknesses, then you will keep improving. We have shared this journey and it was moving to hear this from you.

    Well done George!
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @Wigs

    Firstly Chris thank you so much for the kind words.

    What a journey it’s been, Ken talked about sweat equity and it’s certainly been that in bucket loads. You have to stay strong 💪 it’s a marathon not a sprint and now understand this more than ever.

    Was gonna give it more time before posting this song but thanks to my sister pointing out to me things in my songs don’t sound right, she agreed there was progress and I said getting a lot of the notes in the songs. Then I said might be an issue with my technique, she agreed and by the way she’s not a singer.

    There was a pattern developed in most of my songs was becoming more apparent that there was issues requiring attention and which leads me onto deciding post the song so I reworked the high parts felt volume 4 was helping a little getting more brightness there (part of the reason reluctant to move back vol 1).

    The purpose of posting this demo was to get help finding where I am going wrong, to showcase some big leaps in progress and is it working for me. Such a beautiful song, really feel the lyrics and it’s definitely gonna set a side as a goal song.

    Chris we’ve both started course around the same time, we both come from karaoke background and reckon we’re beginning to become much more than a karaoke singer. It’s great to share each other’s progress along the way and thanks feedback.

    George 😊


  • SinaSina 2.0 PRO Posts: 67
    @Vocality
    I admire your persistence ... as far as advice is concerned, it has already been written above by good people ...thanks! :)
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520

    @Sina thanks for listening now got a clearer pathway to better singing and hopefully others can learn a lot from this thread!

    George
  • doc_ramadanidoc_ramadani Administrator, 2.0 PRO, Facility Management Posts: 3,978
    Dear George, @Vocality,

    we know each other now for almost for 3 years. And I want to thank you for all the conversations we've had. You have become a very valuable member of our troupe. Thanks, George.

    You have received a lot of very good feedback by our mates @DannyOc3an, @RandyB, @DogMeat, ... and I can agree to lot to the things they've mentioned. But there is one thing all of them didn't mention ... I was really surprised about it: your improvement on ptich. George, this is the first time I can hear you sing the melodies. Sometimes you get off but a lot of times you have a wonderful voice singing those melodies. Man, keep doing what you did to reach this step. For me this sounds like a huge step. Great work, George.

    My friend, keeo singing,
    good to have you with us,

    Marco
  • VocalityVocality 2.0 PRO Posts: 1,520
    @doc_ramadani Marco

    Lovely to hear from you again, yes we have shared our singing journey with similar issues along the way and man my pitch has improved loads. The level of consistency, practice I put in, it just nice to have some more experienced friends in the forum helping me along the way and I do try to help others avoid the bad habits.

    Important to note before starting the course I have never done the scales and apart from doing alot karaoke was at the bottom run ladder technically. Alot of the new students have clearly got experience prior starting the KTVA course.

    When starting to trying to learn melodies it took ages to replicate the pitches often or not they would be off in varying degrees. After constant practice and taking your advice on ear training the whole spectrum of my voice has improved. Thanks to @DannyOc3an @randyb @Klaus_T, @DogMeat and input from others pointing out my issue on support has already made a huge difference Thank you all.

    As @wigs said have a better understanding of note values and my vocal range. @sjonrokz4u mentioned he would like to hear an easier song so found a song right in my tessatura. Theres no difficult notes to sing range wise and the melody sits around b3. My aim is to get it down solid and build from there.

    Marco look forward to share our future progress!!

    George :)
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