New Gig singer- worried about longevity
jhshipley
2.0 PRO Posts: 15
Hello, Joshua here.
I'm 40 y.o., and about 3 months ago, I joined a classic rock band for the first time. I have only sung for decades in my car for 45 min at a time before this, and went in over my head joining a band (but I don't mind, it is my time!). The standard gig is 3 hours of singing with 3 20-minute breaks. I have only made about 2 hours of singing in practices yet, and I'm having issues. Fortunately, somehow my vocal cords don't seem to mind. I don't go hoarse, and can always hum and talk and sing softly low or high afterwards, or the next days afterwards. But for 1-3 days after a couple hour practice, my neck is sore in various places. Sometimes on each side of my 'voice box', sometimes elsewhere, and sometimes it feels 'thick' around my voice box for a few days. I hold the mic when I'm singing, and move/dance around a little bit, as the music makes me move, I can't help it! And I also wonder if moving my head/neck around while dancing/singing is bad too. I have only started daily scale practicing 2-3 weeks ago, and plan to vigorously continue growing my voice with the direction of the KTVA program. But I am concerned about my poor habits since I've never officially 'trained'. Although I must be lucky to have decent beginning strength in my vocal cords, as they don't seem to mind themselves. Those decades of singing U2 and Led Zeppelin and Mariah Carey (yes, I enjoy trying to falsetto Mariah!) must have helped strengthen my cords some, albeit in a 'street learning' fashion, and taught me some things I couldn't define before KTVA, like compression singing to hit those higher notes in U2 or Zeppelin without using lots of air. But instead of my cords being a big problem so far, it seems to be my neck muscles and voice-box-moving muscles that are the 'sore spot'. I think I am squeezing off my voice to get the 'gravel' sounds too much, not knowing how to keep my throat open and mimic the same sound. I think I am trying to sing all the little Van Halen (and other song) AHHs that go up in the stratosphere too accurately without knowing the best way how to physically make my throat do that which is hurting me. In general, singing high and clean is relatively easy (like Foreigner). Singing high and 'rough' IS rough (like AC/DC), even though the pitch may not be as high as the clean pitch. I'm not quite sure of many things really, but am learning very quickly at the moment.
What I think I need is some immediate help identifying the worst things I am doing currently, so that I lessen the major evils I'm committing while continuing to grow quickly. It is probable that my beginning is foolish, like running a marathon without training, and there is no way around my soreness/etc. without continuing to build up my neck and voice over time. But even with that, I'm sure there are more serious mistakes I could correct immediately that would make the rest of the race more easy to accomplish if I fixed them immediately. But I'm so new at the game, I need help identifying the worst things I can't see or don't know. I am to succeed and rock the house, of course...
Can some experienced persons please help direct me with these issues and ideas so that I can continue to improve while lessening the worst things I am doing at the moment?
What would be the best way to get help? Continue the phase 2 or 3 of the course (I feel like my problem is inherently past phase 1)?
Show some video of what I'm doing for critique?
Get an hour lesson (could that short of an expensive time possibly be very helpful for such a large problematic beginning)?
Please help, all insights are appreciated, and thank you!
Joshua
I'm 40 y.o., and about 3 months ago, I joined a classic rock band for the first time. I have only sung for decades in my car for 45 min at a time before this, and went in over my head joining a band (but I don't mind, it is my time!). The standard gig is 3 hours of singing with 3 20-minute breaks. I have only made about 2 hours of singing in practices yet, and I'm having issues. Fortunately, somehow my vocal cords don't seem to mind. I don't go hoarse, and can always hum and talk and sing softly low or high afterwards, or the next days afterwards. But for 1-3 days after a couple hour practice, my neck is sore in various places. Sometimes on each side of my 'voice box', sometimes elsewhere, and sometimes it feels 'thick' around my voice box for a few days. I hold the mic when I'm singing, and move/dance around a little bit, as the music makes me move, I can't help it! And I also wonder if moving my head/neck around while dancing/singing is bad too. I have only started daily scale practicing 2-3 weeks ago, and plan to vigorously continue growing my voice with the direction of the KTVA program. But I am concerned about my poor habits since I've never officially 'trained'. Although I must be lucky to have decent beginning strength in my vocal cords, as they don't seem to mind themselves. Those decades of singing U2 and Led Zeppelin and Mariah Carey (yes, I enjoy trying to falsetto Mariah!) must have helped strengthen my cords some, albeit in a 'street learning' fashion, and taught me some things I couldn't define before KTVA, like compression singing to hit those higher notes in U2 or Zeppelin without using lots of air. But instead of my cords being a big problem so far, it seems to be my neck muscles and voice-box-moving muscles that are the 'sore spot'. I think I am squeezing off my voice to get the 'gravel' sounds too much, not knowing how to keep my throat open and mimic the same sound. I think I am trying to sing all the little Van Halen (and other song) AHHs that go up in the stratosphere too accurately without knowing the best way how to physically make my throat do that which is hurting me. In general, singing high and clean is relatively easy (like Foreigner). Singing high and 'rough' IS rough (like AC/DC), even though the pitch may not be as high as the clean pitch. I'm not quite sure of many things really, but am learning very quickly at the moment.
What I think I need is some immediate help identifying the worst things I am doing currently, so that I lessen the major evils I'm committing while continuing to grow quickly. It is probable that my beginning is foolish, like running a marathon without training, and there is no way around my soreness/etc. without continuing to build up my neck and voice over time. But even with that, I'm sure there are more serious mistakes I could correct immediately that would make the rest of the race more easy to accomplish if I fixed them immediately. But I'm so new at the game, I need help identifying the worst things I can't see or don't know. I am to succeed and rock the house, of course...
Can some experienced persons please help direct me with these issues and ideas so that I can continue to improve while lessening the worst things I am doing at the moment?
What would be the best way to get help? Continue the phase 2 or 3 of the course (I feel like my problem is inherently past phase 1)?
Show some video of what I'm doing for critique?
Get an hour lesson (could that short of an expensive time possibly be very helpful for such a large problematic beginning)?
Please help, all insights are appreciated, and thank you!
Joshua
Best Answers
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Gaston_Jauregui
Moderator, Enrolled, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 1,004
in Rock steady you dont keep the brightness the whole time like in scorpions which helps you with pitch, also I imagine you have been singing the scorpions song longer, and the scorpions singers uses a lot of brightness so this trying to emulate it makes it easier,
I would encourage you to bring more brightness to the spots you miss in pitch and support in the rock steady song and kind of take notes of where you need support so you are ready, because you have capability to reach the notes, so congrats for that
on the jaw pain... here is what I would tell you
if you look to the roof the jaw will naturally try to open, so let it open, then look back to the front with the jaw open (in a relaxed way) and mouth as Ken does it, without moving the jaw make the scales repeat every execution, this will release the tension you might have being acquiring
you have to do it every execution of the scales with pauses in between, this is how I relieved the tension of my jaw personally
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HuduVudu
2.0 PRO Posts: 1,818
@jhshipley I am with @Gaston_Jauregui here. You resonance isn't quite there, so your sound isn't very bright. I would stay in Volume 1 and keep working on getting the ping sound in your scales. Once you get it in the scales the transition should be automatic to your singing. Also as @Gaston_Jauregui said your jaw needs to open more.
What I will add this. It seems like you are actually forcing your jaw to stay closed. I think that this is where the jaw tension is coming from. It also seems like you don't have a fully open throat. My feeling is that you feel like you look clumsy or strange by opening your mouth and ultimately your face up so much. I think it is the contradiction between that and what KTVA is teaching you that is causing you to try to comprise which is manifesting itself as tension in you face/jaw. I don't think that singers look strange when they open up when they sing, to me it gives the impression of passion. Also, the truth is nobody is going to be looking at your face when your voice is awesome
Another vibe I got from you is this. It seems like you don't trust your singing. I can totally relate to this. The truth is that you sound good. You need to let go of the things that you were, and embrace what you are now, and what you are ultimately becoming. For you to take the next step you have to be, for lack of a better phrase "Comfortable in your own skin". This is going to require some introspection and some honest appraisal on your part but if you do it and you are conscientious then you will reap great rewards. Please don't let honest appraisal go through your mind as self flagellation, I mean it to be what you are strong at, and fearlessly accept that.
Hope that this helps you on your journey.
Answers
I suspect, that you are doing glottal compression, but not quite correct and I am unable to judge or help with that.
Here is what I suggest:
Submit a LAH bridging triad, to look for where the tension might be coming from.
Also submit a sample of your doing distortion, to determine if you are doing the compression correctly.
I am not sure if the higher level students can help with the compression part, but it might help.
Hope that this can help
I will try to get a song sample soon that has some distortion. What is the best method to post a video on here? And should I post it in this thread, or somewhere else? Thank you...
you can either use soundcloud.com for audio clips or youtube. I would recommend that you upload videos on youtube and mark them as "not listed". Copy the link of your video and paste it into your post here in the forum. The forum software will translate the link and embed the youtube player in your post.
Regards,
Doc
@HuduVudu -
These are bad videos taken on my cell phone, using my computer speakers and youtube karaoke covers for the song, but it should give you a decent idea of how I sing. It is probably an 85% performance for me.
The first video with Rock Steady should have some more distortion singing. The second with Still Loving You should be using more compression but clearer tone I think. I think I'm singing my air guitar a little too loudly, which my wife thinks is hilarious (I don't do that at practice, but I was just in the mood screwing around. My incorrect Scorpions words were also atrocious)...
I just had another couple hour singing practice Saturday, and my jaw was tired the next day and today. I am doing something wrong, but it doesn't look like I'm straining my jaw that much to me in the videos (which were recorded the day after practice), but what do I know. If my jaw hurts I must have done it wrong. It was my throat muscles that have hurt before, now they are fine. My cords never seem to bother still, which I guess is a blessing. I think I move around and wave my left hand a lot more when I have a mic too, which could be an additional problem.
Anywho, please opine:
One thing that may help you is to keep your head straight forward. When you turn your head sideways, you are restricting the airflow for the "Open Throat". If you want to turn a certain way, turn your body, and not the head.
Still Loving You: That sounded pretty good too. same thing, just a few minor hiccups.
For that song you may want to play with some softer textures at the beginning of the phrases, and when you sing "I will be there".
Peace, Tony
Also @HuduVudu , you were correct that I'm not comfortable. I have a large phobia of doing anything in front of people, if you can believe it! It is only the realization that I'm getting old fast and have always wanted to sing if possible that has finally given me the attitude of "I just don't care anymore" in order to try this endeavor, although as you've pointed out with my vibe, I don't have the self-confidence and showmanship yet at all. I've never sang in front of more than a karaoke crowd more than a handful of times, and now I've signed up to sing with a band 40+ of the hardest classic rock and roll songs in front of whoever shows up! It is quite out of the box for me, and sometimes I still laugh at myself thinking this was a 'good' or even plausible idea. I know the first time I will be a nervous wreck, but I just feel like I don't care right now, and I have to move on. So now I'm trying very hard to obtain a solid singing foundation and memorization of these songs to help lessen my fear when it is time to go. I'm still not convinced I can sing the whole set list in one night, as we have not gotten that far yet together! And these bouts of muscle aches in different places make me wonder, so I have to fix my worst problems now in order to keep moving forward. I sure would like to sing them all well, and make some people happy if possible (and I would enjoy that immensely too!)...
Thank you guys for the assessment, I appreciate it.
I don't know if you have experienced it yet but look for it and try to get to a place where you can experience it. The experience is this, for lack of better words "crowd feedback loop". Our voice is but one piece of the singing puzzle. Unfortunately it is the most focused on and IMO the least important. The crowd feedback loop is why people really sing. As a singer I made up reasons as to why I sang. They were all BS, and I knew it. I just liked to sing and I didn't really care if I tortured others in the process I just wanted to do it, and in karaoke you share the torture. Then one day, I hit the crowd feedback loop. It was totally by accident and I wasn't even trying. It was THE coolest feeling in the world. I am not a good singer, not even now, but I understand this thing and my whole perspective of singing and music is much sharper for it. If you can do it you will know what I am talking about and you will stop being self conscious about your singing, and more importantly you will know why you sing. I wished I could provide you more concrete help, but this is the best that I can do.
"drop it open gently - find the most open position without tension - hopefully this will be the width of two fingers. open and close it gently and feel it loose. if it does not open easily, then you will have to work on it gently over a fairly long period, loosening it at odd times through the day so that it gradually loosens up. chewing movements help this."
i have a very tight jaw and try to incorporate it in the day with the opening at random times (only just started it), and also massaging the cheeks. i found some instructions to loosen / massage the jaw on youtube, the video is in German so i am not sure if it would be helpful to you, also not sure if i'm allowed to post links to random YT videos here (i am not affiliated with the channel or anything) I could PM the video if you are interested. I think you sound good by the way!
And thank you @HuduVudu for your perspective. I guess maybe practicing my set list songs in some karaoke settings are about the only way to get more comfortable in front of people until I have to do it for real in my first gig, and maybe try to get to understand that feedback loop you are talking about. I agree, I'm not really singing just for me. I mean, I love music, but I want to give or share something too, I don't need to sing just for me. Somehow, I need to work on being comfortable in my own skin as you say, and accept myself and my singing instead of feeling awkward about it still. I have a way to go, but it has been a good experience thus far, like I enjoy practicing with the boys now, where it made me nervous trying out and the first few practices. I think playing in front of people will come in time too. They say you have to do something "10,000 times" before you master it completely. Well, I will never do 10,000 gigs, but I imagine if I do more than 10, that the 10th will be far more comfy than the 1st.
Thank you everyone for helping me understand more about this. I appreciate it,
Joshua