Hi, I can belt pretty well but how do I lighten it up with rasp without thinning too much? And more
Sy256
Member Posts: 9
Hi I'm 30 I've had some training in classical and been singing for awhile, so I think I have a hang of support and basics and I am pretty sure I'm a low tenor at least they told me that in the past, or spinto, its been awhile since I've had lessons, or money. Let me know what you think. I was in a classic rock cover band and now a power metal band (we don't play live thank god) and I'd love to try ken's lessons devoted to rock but again, money. Anyways, even though I think I've gotten pretty good at belting, I like the tone of my quiet voice more, but it lacks the power of the full. My quiet voice seems to have more flexibility and high frequencies/air, and my belting is more uhhh...dopey and dark I guess. While somehow still sounding thin. But also has a piercing high frequencies that I don't really like, if I watch it in an EQ spectrum it has the biggest spikes in the 1k range, then spread out pretty even throughout the highs and pretty much no bass below 200hz. It sounds like something is off to me even if the pitch is correct, that it doesn't have the warmness of some of my idol singer's highs. I wonder if its a mic/production thing sometimes but it's probably really a singing thing but ya know its always hard to tell.
Anyways I've attempted some bon jovi, the song born to be my baby, and it sounds almost similar if I do quiet voice with some nasal projection and some slight fry rasp almost like 'old man voice', and then run it through a guitar amp plugin. I'm pretty sure jon didn't have to use a guitar amp plugin though. But on listen I DO hear a ton of layers on the chorus, and he does it a lot differently live. I normally use a lot of layers too, but I want to get better at just doing it with one authentically and without relying on fx....IF the pros aren't using the effects that is. If you know if bon jovi had some kind of distorting vocal chain you let me know lol. I do find it weird that I can barely hear him on the non-processed demo of that song though, so maybe he IS quiet. Actually I just checked out a KT vid where he said he is and he's using a lot of reverb to sound big. When I use reverb it just sounds messy. I also sing with like no natural reverb, I either sing in a car or in my closet, right close up to a sm7b, killing all the room sound.
Whenever I write my own song I usually start with the quiet voice, and then don’t like once I replace that with the full voice, and sometimes I just keep the quiet voice layer on there mixed with the full voice because it makes the whole thing sound more smooth. Is that something pros do? I just had a band I’m part of's album produced by someone who would not use the effects I wanted or any of the layers (to be fair he used some backing reverb, but it’s not the kind I usually want I wanted to be saturated in it) and the final result released made me wanna stop singing lol. And it’s not just in my head, people who listened said I sounded bad too. Then again this is comparison to another one of our singers, who is amazing. It’s like I belt notes and he glides over them with grace and rasp. I show that at the end of the last link here. I'm really trying and I've been at this for a loooong time so I'm getting desperate, do you think its just my voice type?
This is a demo and breakdown of the things I've tried on born to be my baby. The demo's at the beginning and the rest is just meandering through all the processing I did and showing it completely dry/no fx and alternate takes and such, and you don't have to watch that part unless you got time. I speak through a rock band usb mic on these. Only the effects with checkmarks are being used, and I did this mainly in whole takes but it was split up later. All these videos expire in 14 days.
WATCH YOUR VOLUME
I also tried a bit of Run To The Hills but I can't growl. I can hit the high in what I think is chest (in a couple of the takes) but it sounds too piercing to me, and then I try it in a bunch of different ways. Mostly did this for the chorus. Really starts around 1:00.
Here's random acapella stuff starting with poppier stuff
Here's random mostly not acapella but songs I started and, you can skip around in this its a long one, and i go down the list in order. It starts with a quick demo of talking and what i do to check for damage and stuff. Then the low and high extremes of my range, and then a bunch of song snippets. I haven’t hurt myself yet, and these recordings are all from different months and years I don’t notice much change, but if I go too hard for too long one day I don’t notice any pain in the moment but the next day I might have a feeling that it’s less easy and weaker, and then I rest it off for a day or 2 and it comes back.
There’s so much I wanna say and ask but this is getting pretty long and I’ve sat on it for a day now so I’m just gonna post and hope its all here haha. Thanks!
Anyways I've attempted some bon jovi, the song born to be my baby, and it sounds almost similar if I do quiet voice with some nasal projection and some slight fry rasp almost like 'old man voice', and then run it through a guitar amp plugin. I'm pretty sure jon didn't have to use a guitar amp plugin though. But on listen I DO hear a ton of layers on the chorus, and he does it a lot differently live. I normally use a lot of layers too, but I want to get better at just doing it with one authentically and without relying on fx....IF the pros aren't using the effects that is. If you know if bon jovi had some kind of distorting vocal chain you let me know lol. I do find it weird that I can barely hear him on the non-processed demo of that song though, so maybe he IS quiet. Actually I just checked out a KT vid where he said he is and he's using a lot of reverb to sound big. When I use reverb it just sounds messy. I also sing with like no natural reverb, I either sing in a car or in my closet, right close up to a sm7b, killing all the room sound.
Whenever I write my own song I usually start with the quiet voice, and then don’t like once I replace that with the full voice, and sometimes I just keep the quiet voice layer on there mixed with the full voice because it makes the whole thing sound more smooth. Is that something pros do? I just had a band I’m part of's album produced by someone who would not use the effects I wanted or any of the layers (to be fair he used some backing reverb, but it’s not the kind I usually want I wanted to be saturated in it) and the final result released made me wanna stop singing lol. And it’s not just in my head, people who listened said I sounded bad too. Then again this is comparison to another one of our singers, who is amazing. It’s like I belt notes and he glides over them with grace and rasp. I show that at the end of the last link here. I'm really trying and I've been at this for a loooong time so I'm getting desperate, do you think its just my voice type?
This is a demo and breakdown of the things I've tried on born to be my baby. The demo's at the beginning and the rest is just meandering through all the processing I did and showing it completely dry/no fx and alternate takes and such, and you don't have to watch that part unless you got time. I speak through a rock band usb mic on these. Only the effects with checkmarks are being used, and I did this mainly in whole takes but it was split up later. All these videos expire in 14 days.
WATCH YOUR VOLUME
I also tried a bit of Run To The Hills but I can't growl. I can hit the high in what I think is chest (in a couple of the takes) but it sounds too piercing to me, and then I try it in a bunch of different ways. Mostly did this for the chorus. Really starts around 1:00.
Here's random acapella stuff starting with poppier stuff
Here's random mostly not acapella but songs I started and, you can skip around in this its a long one, and i go down the list in order. It starts with a quick demo of talking and what i do to check for damage and stuff. Then the low and high extremes of my range, and then a bunch of song snippets. I haven’t hurt myself yet, and these recordings are all from different months and years I don’t notice much change, but if I go too hard for too long one day I don’t notice any pain in the moment but the next day I might have a feeling that it’s less easy and weaker, and then I rest it off for a day or 2 and it comes back.
There’s so much I wanna say and ask but this is getting pretty long and I’ve sat on it for a day now so I’m just gonna post and hope its all here haha. Thanks!
Comments
:38 - god would know the reasons A4
1:01 - clean A4s
2:03 - Dry god A4, vs other takes, and then the dry clean A’s
3:25 - different take, quieter with some fry A4
From the 3rd link :
:21 - 1:21 - cleaner poppier singing of a different song 'Dig' to give a contrast to the belting in bon jovi. I don't sound like the incubus guy either though, he's got way more low end
The part at 4:19 is what I'm trying to sound like. If the video's not lying, he was right up on the mic I guess, which kinda fits with what Ken said in his video that he had a small voice but boosted it with effects.
So my primary questions are
- how do I lighten it up with rasp without thinning too much?
- do I sound like a tenor or baritone, do you think its just not possible for my voice to sound like this
- how can I put some more fullness on the lows of these notes as it seems all the singers I try to do have
- anything else in general to work on in particular?
This last part is not as important but I have another vid, this one is only 4 mins, I first did a part of a dragonforce song, and then listened to how he does it live and it sounds a lot different than the album, and I think he is using a heady mix with some rasp or something, like not quite falsetto but his voice sounds very light, and then I tried it that way and stumbled on something close I think but not quite as powerful. Wondering how I can get there whether its a technique or effects thing. And was the last note on the red one chest or head?
Thanks!
@bentk @Klaus_T @sjonrokz4u @DannyOc3an @highmtn
Some feedback:
On the Bon Jovi example you posted, for example at 02:55, that sounds like a weak airy head voice. You don't want to use a lot of air.
Your 'normal singing' or 'belting' is more in the right direction. How does that singing feel for you?
On the Dragonforce example, the last note does indeed seem to be fully head voice. But your head voice is not weak there, although it could be a lot stronger.
You seem to struggle more on the Dragonforce example as well, make sure to use proper support to get through that range. Your pitch also suffers more here, and you lack control. In the Bon Jovi song you are more comfortable and have better pitch. However, I'm not trying to say that you can't ever sing Dragonforce! I can only comment on what I hear.
Also on the Dragonforce example, your next sing through is again weaker. A lot of head voice etc. but weaker. That is not how the dude from Dragonforce is singing, although he DOES use head voice and mix etc. If he uses full head voice, it also is on the powerful side. Growing a stronger head voice is also taught at KTVA. You can see Ken talk about developing head voice on youtube as well. In the course, it is purposely taught at a later stage instead of early on. We first focus on the fundamentals, and build our chest voice, and practice our bridging from chest to head voice.
I don't know what your vocal fach is. I recommend not paying attention to it. I also don't know my own 'official' vocal fach. As you grow a stronger voice and work on all the aspects of the voice, your range increases. You actually start off 'stretching' your chest voice in the first section of KTVA.
Singing with rasp/distortion requires a lot of compression and diaphragmatic support. You really want to minimize air flow, and start of with a clean sound first. Again, there is also a video about that from Ken on youtube.
The course guides you step by step with a ton of information along the way. You can make a start with the youtube videos, but make sure that you listen well and take your time going through them. The workouts in KTVA is how you learn the technique, and grow your voice. In the meantime, you learn to apply the technique to your actual singing. This is part of the reason that it's easier to help people when they post examples of doing the exercises.
It's obvious that we would recommend getting the course. You said that you have been going at this for a long time. If you want to improve and get more feedback, you need the resources. Some people pay for lessons from a local vocal coach, or online coach. Practicing all by yourself, and posting some songs now and then, is not an efficient way to learn. You might not learn some very important fundamentals, and that time is then more or less wasted. There are people here that have traveled LONG roads with their vocal training, and tried all kinds of methods that did not work for them. If you want to learn singing step by step, and have more help at the forum, the course is the way to go.
Anyway, this got quite long already. I hope this helps you out!
We're here for any more questions/talk etc.
Hi, thanks for answering, ok I will watch more KT videos on youtube, I thought some of what you said are head were chest so I’ll start on those vids there. I’d much like to be able to afford the actual lessons course but I have to work up to that for the time being. And I don’t really have a place to practice or sing except my car so even if I could afford it I’d need to find a better place probably. I decided to try a fiverr to sing since I have been paid before and maybe I can earn some money for lessons this way. Do you think I am supporting correctly at least? I have been singing like this for years (I was way worse before my first lessons) and haven’t hurt myself or changed much so I’ve figured my support is good. Although sometimes when I sing for too long with intensity on it I have to rest for a day or two where my voice all around is deeper, like morning voice, fry is stronger and I can’t be as loud without more effort, so I shut up entirely and let it come back. But it’s tempting to lean into it because to me it is a much easier rasp to my head voice using nasal, but it feels weird to do and I don’t wanna risk making it worse and getting nodes or something. Before I start I always warm up and then warm down when I’m done, and I remember seeing KT say whenever you sing notes raspy remember to sing them clean as well so your voice doesn’t lock up that way so I do that too.
Here’s another thing I just tried the other day, of gloryhammer, is this in chest do you think?
Now that was 2 layers so here’s the main 1 of them completely dry no effects. It was 1 take except for the end
s-yEZkPUTZh1j
(For that 2nd link just remove the space, it wasn't appearing because it's private)
Thanks
(For that 2nd link just remove the spaces, it wasn't appearing because it's private)
Thanks