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What note is at your vocal break?

What note or notes comprise your vocal break? Starting out as as a baritone, my segundo passaggio , or my break between chest voice and head voice, is around F4/F#4. Has it changed for any of you after singing for quite awhile. I’ve been working pretty hard on vocals for about 3 years and have increased my range and power. But my passaggio break still remains at F4/F#4. Should it stay the same or has anyone noticed that it has risen a few notes? I would be interested in knowing what you sing and where your passaggio break is.
Thanks, Bill

Comments

  • TerenceTerence 3.0 Streaming Posts: 292
    Fitz said:

    ...has anyone noticed that it has risen a few notes? I would be interested in knowing what you sing and where your passaggio break is.
    Thanks, Bill

    As a baritone like yourself, Segundo was F4 and has widened. I can still shift there but also lower and higher at G#4 and sometimes A4 at end of vol 3 workouts. As I get warmed up, it becomes possible to remain in chest higher before releasing into a mix. That was not the case before developing. F4 could still be the shifting note but feels more like an option within a widened range of options. Am currently working on gently stretching chest higher but it's a long term work in progress.

  • FitzFitz 2.0 PRO Posts: 7
    It’s nice to hear from a fellow Baritone!
    Like I I’d said earlier, I’ve been singing consistently for the last 3 years working the program. I’ve increased my upper range from C5 to F5 and can sing head voice with power, ( full connected voice like my chest). I grew up on 70’s & 80’s rock and wished I could sing those high male tenor notes with power but couldn’t. All I could do was sing those higher notes in a wispy falsetto voice, (not the power I was looking for). I’ve now been able to convert those higher falsetto notes into a much more powerful sound matching my chest voice. I do owe it to working the KTVA program. (But it took 3 years, not 30 days like some other programs. lDon’t get me wrong, I still have a lot more to do.

    But let me circle back to my original questions. After all this time, my passaggio break has still remained at about F#4. As I understand, everything below the segundo passaggio is considered chest voice and everything above is head voice. If this is the case, why hasn’t my passaggio moved higher up the scale? If we can truly grow our chest voice, why has my chest voice not grown at all? Or is it just semantics? When I pop into head voice, about G4, I can make it sound like my chest voice or chose the softer fallsetto. I’m wondering if anybody else is finding the same issues. I’m also finding it a challenge when a song is pitched so the high “money note” is right at my passaggio. My voice tends to flip between chest & head voice at around E4, F4, and F#4, when I’m not warmed up. (Yes, my passaggio break actually spans about 3 notes). Once I’m warmed up, I can negotiate the notes fairly well but would still want to pitch the song higher or lower if the “important notes” are at my passaggio area. Ok, sorry for going so long.
  • TerenceTerence 3.0 Streaming Posts: 292
    edited December 2022
    Fitz said:

    It’s nice to hear from a fellow Baritone!

    Yes, it is! There are several here including at least one moderator so you're in good company. It's also possible we're generally close to Ken's Fach so can often learn more directly from his examples.
    Fitz said:

    It’s nice to hear from a fellow Baritone!
    Like I I’d said earlier, I’ve been singing consistently for the last 3 years working the program. I’ve increased my upper range from C5 to F5 and can sing head voice with power, ( full connected voice like my chest). I grew up on 70’s & 80’s rock and wished I could sing those high male tenor notes with power but couldn’t. All I could do was sing those higher notes in a wispy falsetto voice, (not the power I was looking for). I’ve now been able to convert those higher falsetto notes into a much more powerful sound matching my chest voice. I do owe it to working the KTVA program. (But it took 3 years, not 30 days like some other programs. lDon’t get me wrong, I still have a lot more to do.

    Congrats on the hard work it took to make this progress. Much greater than 30-days, indeed.
    Fitz said:

    As I understand, everything below the segundo passaggio is considered chest voice and everything above is head voice. If this is the case, why hasn’t my passaggio moved higher up the scale? If we can truly grow our chest voice, why has my chest voice not grown at all? Or is it just semantics?

    Everything below the segundo may be chest if you're singing that way. It can also be pure head or a mix. If you've made it to vol 4 you know Ken has us developing our head voice down below C4, at least a major 4rth below your F#4. Everything above our segundo must be some kind of mix, agreed. However, the chest stretching we're talking about will leave you with the option to raise the limit at which you can sing 100% chest before releasing to head or a mx.
    Fitz said:

    If this is the case, why hasn’t my passaggio moved higher up the scale? If we can truly grow our chest voice, why has my chest voice not grown at all?

    Growing chest voice has two main components: 1) Strengthening, which you've done, and 2) Stretching, which you may not have done intentionally, yet. There may be a natural raise of the segundo with just general strengthening. However, stretching beyond that will not happen if not done intentionally. Even when done intentionally, it's been slow going for me and a work in progress.
    Fitz said:

    Or is it just semantics?

    There are semantic obstacles and you have to settle them to get to the underlying real physiological realities. For example, it took me four months on the course before I could even believe what I was reading when Ken described stretching chest to the extent he has. I thought, surely, he was in a mix beyond F#4 but it was so thick I couldn't tell. He can, indeed, sing in a very thick mix in that area. However, you can hear for yourself when listening to the last 1/3 of volume three exercise that he's singing in 100% chest much of the time.

    Fitz said:

    When I pop into head voice, about G4, I can make it sound like my chest voice or chose the softer fallsetto. I’m wondering if anybody else is finding the same issues.

    Yes, me too.
    Fitz said:

    I’m also finding it a challenge when a song is pitched so the high “money note” is right at my passaggio.

    That's a challenge for any singer. It's a more pressing one for we baritones because so many popular songs are written with the money note right in the middle of our passagio. Even harder is when the melody requires total ease within the passagio for long periods of time.
    Fitz said:

    My voice tends to flip between chest & head voice at around E4, F4, and F#4, when I’m not warmed up. (Yes, my passaggio break actually spans about 3 notes). Once I’m warmed up, I can negotiate the notes fairly well but would still want to pitch the song higher or lower if the “important notes” are at my passaggio area. Ok, sorry for going so long.

    Me too but when thoroughly warmed up and finishing vol 3 exercises G#4 and sometimes A4 become the upper limit of 100% chest. As I mentioned, that was not always the case and would have only occurred through intentional stretching (while keeping head voice and the passagio strong between stretching workouts.) One of the best examples of this is when Ken sings the LAH-OOH-AH tract shaping exercise through A4. He's in 100% chest there and that's what it sounds like.

    Something @DannyOc3an said once was a big help here: "...just listen to Ken sing and tell your body to imitate him." Do that on the last 1/3 of vol 3 and I think you'll start to see progress. You'll know when you've reached your limit for the day and backoff. But the next time you come back you may be in for a nice surprise.

    I also found the way @Wigs distinguishes chest register and chest voice to be clarifying: Chest register is the full range of your voice in which you can sing in 100% chest. Chest voice is wherever you may bring to bear the characteristics of chest voice (which I believe is the thyroid arytenoid muscle group.) Based on your description, you're bringing chest voice, for example, into your head voice to thicken it above your current passagio. But that range is beyond your chest register if it's in a range where you couldn't sing in 100% chest.
  • FitzFitz 2.0 PRO Posts: 7
    Thanks Terrance for your feedback.

    I often look at our vocal range as an hour glass figure.
    The narrow section, of course, is our passaggio. Ideally, I want to widen the bottle neck to match the upper & lower head and chest voice. I’ve done some vocal training exercises where I would vocalize, usually a siren, from about C4 through the segundo up to about G4 and back down. (For my natural baritone voice). I’ll do it very slowly. It sounds terrible! I get a lot of warbling because the voice is flipping between chest & head. I do have to watch out that I don’t do it for too long because it is very taxing on the voice. This is what I would call spot training. I do believe, of course, in the comprehensive training that Ken wants us to do. I am using the KTVA VOL3 b exercise with piano accompaniment, (for dudes), which goes for a good 45 minutes or so. My typical routine is to do this exercise and then sing to a set list of my favorite songs which tend to be in my range or slightly above implementing all the techniques of vowel mods, correct breathing, negotiating consonants, etc. If I can get 2 hours in each time, I’m pretty happy. Interestingly, I have noticed that if I forgo the KTVA VOL3b exercises and just sing to my set list, I notice that my voice, after about a week, will not be as strong. A very good reason to not skip the exercises. Thanks.
  • TerenceTerence 3.0 Streaming Posts: 292


    Still thinking about this first draft, trying to approximate a hypothetical ideal baritone voice.
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