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Stage two of learning a song

So any tips on learning a song guys? I got learning the melody on "Ah" down. Im having trouble adding in vowels without consonants. 

Also When learning a song do we sing every word with a "lah" and actually say "lah" and move the tongue? Or do we just keep the mouth and throat wide open and just sing it all with an "ah"?  
One last thing. I feel like im so close. To just getting somewhere. To like breaking a huge blockade. Im so close i can just smell it. But the song learning portion is holding me back i think. Ive learned so much. Last week i noticed my uvula disappear into the top of my throat when i sing higher. My tongue is concave and my throat is just so damn open i can chug a sword while doing my workouts. (ok not that open)  I may not hit the goal i had set out to hit. But the progress is simply amazing. If there is anything you guys can show me about learning a song that would be great. And if there are any easy beginner tenor songs you guys have in mind pls throw them at me. And give me a challenge or a goal. I want this so badly. all the helpive been given and continue to recive is amazing. Thanks guys!

Comments

  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    @kashifbilgrami,

    Initially, you learn a song with the AH vowel, beginning with a Lah, but sustaining it on the AH vowel.  In other words, you don't sing la,la,la, la, la... you sing Lah, ah, ah, ah, ah.

    You want to sustain that ah vowel as much as possible.  So you take out all of the consonants.  That way, the melody can be a long, sustained tone.  

    The consonants cause the vocal tract to close down, and we want to get the feeling of the Open Throat remaining open.

    Eventually, after singing it all on Ah without any consonants, we add all of the actual vowels of the song, but still without consonants.  This seems really wierd, but it really helps.  The sound will sound very strange, but put that aside in your mind and just get the feeling of singing a song that has no consonants.  Yes, it's strange.

    The magic comes when you add in very, very light consonants on top of those constant, and contiguous vowels.  You add the consonants as lightly as you can possibly add them. 

    What happens then is that you feel this constant flow of sound. The vowels become musical words. You need very little consonant to make words intelligible, and that's all you want.  What you are left with is this flow of sound that is almost never shut down.

    Every time you put in a consonant, the open throat shuts down.  You want to minimize that and to instead maximize the flow time of the sound, with only lightly flicking consonants.

    After you get the feel of this, you will want to sing like that from then on.  

    We sing on vowels.  We don't sing on consonants.  Consonants are interruptions to the flow of the sound.  When people listen to us sing, they are hearing the continuous vowels.  That's why we spend so much time training on vowels.

    When we do our exercises we are building our vowels, learning to deal with them as they modify at higher pitches.  

    It's simplified by the fact that we take ONE VOWEL at a time and work the devil out of it.  We get really good with each of those vowels.  

    When we get to the point of singing songs, all of a sudden we're bombarded by all of these consonants and vowels that change in rapid-fire sequences.  We rely on the muscle memory that we've been working on for so long, to go to bat for us.  The flow of vowels from one vowel to another can be a little tricky.  We learn to negotiate those rapid changes, and maintain as much open vocal tract time as possible.  

    This is a time when we have conquered one set of moving targets and now use that training to deal with the addition of the lyrics and changing melodies of songs. Our basic building blocks come into play and give us the tone and the support we need to jump this important hurdle.  

    Take an easier song to start with.  First sing it on the AH vowel. Then print out the lyrics and rewrite it with just the vowels.  Practice like that and get it down, no matter how odd it seems.  Just make sure nobody is there listening.  Don't do it at Carnegie Hall. 

    The other thing you may want to do is practice a song in a lower key, and then gradually move it up a half-step at a time, until you are singing it a note or two above the target key. Then you go back to singing it in the original key, which may have previously been out of reach for you.  Now it seems much easier.  You do have to repeat this process and practice it a lot, if the song is a stretch for you.  But give it time, and be gentle on your voice.

    Remember to cut back the air, and remember to support, support, support.

    You're almost there.  

    Bob
  • kashifbilgramikashifbilgrami Posts: 78Enrolled
    Practiced these lyrics with the vowels for 30 minutes today. Im starting to get a better grasp on keeping it open with vowels now. Just need to know if these are the right vowels to sing with the words. And i get what you mean by the long sustained note. thanks for all the help

    Eyes in the sky gazing far into    the night
    Ah    eh ah ah  Aye eh ah eh oo  ah ah

    I    raise   my hands to  the sky
    Ah ayeee ah  ah      oo  ah ah

    But it's no use 
    Ah  eh oh oo

    You can  stop  it     from shining   through
    Oo   ahh  ahh  ehh ahh  ahh ehh  oh-oo 

    It's true won't you let the  light                                shine   through
    Eh oo   oh      oo  eh ahh ahh (mod to oh the uhh) ahh     oo

    You believe it's true
    Oo   eh ee   eh  oo

    Come on  let light                                       shine through For  you
    Oh      oh  eh ahh ah(mod to oh then uhh) ah     oo         oh    oo
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Yes.  You are understanding the concept.  I see a few minor differences, but as a whole, you have the idea. 

    The sound of "I" or eye, will be a diphthong of Ah-EE.  We soften the attack of "I" by opening up with the Ah.

    "CAN" would use the AA (as in hat) vowel. 

    You're on the right track.  Sometimes you will use an AA and sometimes an AH. 
    What you will find is that it's difficult to toggle between some vowels, and easier to do some others.  

    Often in the skype lessons you will hear Ken say "AH-eh, AH-eh!" meaning the student should choose to toggle between Ah and eh there, rather than some other possible choice.  
    The reason for that is that vowel transitions should be done in the most efficient manner, in order to make the sound flow more smoothly.  Going between difficult vowel transitions will stop the flow or impede it at a minimum.  

    After you get used to this, you will find that it's easier than singing it while trying to "pronounce it correctly".  

    Well, you need to SING it correctly.  We're not SPEAKING these songs, we're SINGING them, and we want to construct our singing, using these vowels we have learned to modify, and to get as little interference from our vocal tract trying to form the vowels of the song.  

    Keep doing what you're doing right now.  Then very, very lightly, see what the smallest amount of consonant is that you can add back in.

    I like to describe it as trying to have a continuous form for the vowels, as if you are pouring a "concrete curb" that is the sound. You want that curb to be continuous through each phrase, and the consonants want to break it up into little pieces.  You won't allow the consonants to do that, so instead, you only let the consonants make little indentations into that flow of curb.  As a result, you get a continuous, flowing curb, that has only brief, shallow indentations in a continuously flowing sound.  

    That is a word-picture that should help you to establish this concept.  It's a big step in moving to Open Throat singing of actual songs with rapid-fire vowels and lyrics, and incorporating the concepts that you have been burning into muscle memory all of this time.  

    Once you experience singing lyrics in this manner, you will never want to do without it.  You will realize that practicing without the consonants was the only way to get you from where you were to where you want to go.  You will "Get It". 

    All the Best!

    Bob
  • kashifbilgramikashifbilgrami Posts: 78Enrolled
    thankyou so much! I WILL GET THIS!!!!!!
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    And I wonder why we hold on with tears in are eyes.could you please do the vowels for me thanks Paul.
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    edited April 2016
    What are the notes on these lyrics?
    What song is it?
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Hi thanks it's I wonder why Curtis stigers the first bit is in chest .We hold goes into break are its a e or f area thanks
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Sorry another little thing when ken's says to keep tongue at bottom of mouth in first dvd does he mean when you sing or just the excersise because when he sings I'm your lady with vowels his tongue moves thanks Paul
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    edited April 2016
    I'll answer your last question first. The tongue lays flat at the base of the jaw for the AH vowel. We keep it down in that position to the extent possible, to train it to keep the throat open.

    For the EE vowel, it has to rise up some, just to form the EE Vowel. So it will move, according to the vowels we are singing. We train it on AH, as that is the foundation of our singing. It will move to the extent that it needs to move. Otherwise, we would be tongue-tied and unable to articulate at all during songs. So, even in songs, when we are singing the AH vowel, it will be appropriate to tend to keep the tongue at the base of the jaw... but there will be some exceptions, based on the circumstances, notes, and lyrics.

    Other vowels vary slightly.
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    And I wonder why we hold on with tears in our eyes

    AAnd AH W-AHn-dAH wh-AH w-EE


    h-OHL-dAHwn w-ehth-tEE-AHs ehn-AHr-AH-EEs

    (The EE at the end of Eyes is almost non-existent. It could easily be AHS or just a short, glancing ees at the end of the ah.)
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Thankyou very much for your help☺☺☺
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I'm sorry I just don't get the w.EE business do you open them up with the ahh. .wha wee? Sorry to be a pain
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    He's singing the words "Why we"

    Why is wh+AH=why or "wh-ah-ee" The "i" (as in sky) is a diphthong, or combination of two vowel sounds, ah and EE. I=ah-ee The ee part is very, very short, almost doesn't happen because it goes by so quickly.

    EE on the word "We" happens very suddenly, and is much easier to sing if you open up first with a quick AH and immediately roll into the EE FROM the quick AH. That's a lot easier on your cords, less glottal shock, more open throat.

  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I thought ee goes to eh on the break .I wonder why weh? ☺
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Thank you I will leave you alone now☺much appreciated
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I've noticed you can pronunciate the consonants with your tongue instead of jaw.is that right m8
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    You want to de-emphasise consonants as much as possible AND keep the jaw as static as possible. Using the tongue to make consonants is good alternative.

    Bob
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    This is my last post sorry.as soon as you bring in a consonant the mouth closes and moves the jaw you can't make consonants and keep mouth open ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Consonants don't necessarily require jaw movement, and to the extent possible, we keep the jaw position static. There will be some jaw movement. We minimize it.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Ken has a you tube video were he sings Michael jackson songs he says it's a mix of falsetto head voice .were on the course does it explain this is it your normal voice Plz help thanks Paul.
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    The end of volume two includes slider exercises that help to build the mixed voice. In volume 3 there are audio exercises that further introduce bringing the chest voice up into the head voice register, where you are using a mix of chest and head at the same time. After completing volume 3, the building head voice program can help you to bring your head voice down into the chest voice range. Building the overlapping of the range of chest voice and the range of head voice is how you build an area that can be either chest or head or a combination of the two. First you have to build up each of the separate registers, and then you can combine them.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Let it be just one not I can't hit it's a top A let it be let it "be"could you tell me the vowels plc.
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Let it Be is a tough song to sing.

    The high "Be" in the chorus is only a G4, but you either need a good mix voice or you'll have to belt it, or sing it in head voice. McCartney has an excellent mix voice, so he sings it lightly.

    It's pretty much an "EE" but you can soften the blow by starting it with an eh. Leht eht b-eh/EE
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    So its possible to get a good mix voice or are you born with it ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    You have to work for it. Stretch your chest voice high. Then stretch your head voice low. The more the ranges overlap, the more options you have for your mixed voice.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Okay hope you don't mind all the questions I need to have it right in my mind.glottal compression do I use this all the time it seems to reach notes easier on the scales thank you.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    There is no mention of building head voice in this course it says it's in the pro pack does that mean I won't be able to mix properly am I missing out
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Building head voice comes with the Pro Packs. There are exercises in volumes two and three that help to build your mix.

    The building head voice program can further develop your mix voice, as well as your head voice. The pro packs contain valuable information, videos, and lessons that will augment your vocal training.

    You use the "cutting back the air" part of glottal compression all the time, once you have reached that part of the program. You Don't use the distortion aspect of glottal compression all the time.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    What a nightmare I bet that's what I need the head voice pack fancy leaving that out
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    So you not going to sing better than anyone else unless you buy the pro pack ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    There was no pro pack when I first bought the course, and I was singing better than anyone else then, without the pro packs. I was very happy with the program I got and with the results on my voice. Now the pro packs exist, and you can choose to buy them in your bundle, or not pay for them and not get them.

    You will have more learning materials if you choose to upgrade to the Pro Packs.

    Since you're asking about having access to more information, I suggest you request to have your forums status upgraded. There are more videos available, and a great deal more information about the course in the student areas of the forums. The Weekend Warrior course does not include student access to the forums. The KTVA Course (without Pro Packs) includes "Enrolled" status.

    To get student access (or Pro access if you get the Pro Packs) copy and paste your KTVA purchase receipt into an email to [email protected]

    Mention your username here on the forums, and request a forums upgrade. Be sure to include your purchase receipt.

    With upgraded forums status, you will have access to much more information here. You're only seeing the smallest part of the forums with "Member" status. That won't cost you anything more than what you've already paid for your KTVA program.

    All the Best!

    Bob
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Is it possible to just train head voice and sing all songs like that
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    It's possible. It's not the best idea. Most people want to use their entire vocal range? Some females are amazed when they realize that they have never used their chest voice. When they discover that they can access several notes available to them in their chest voice, it's like their range has been increased significantly.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I have a big loud chest voice and I'm sick of it I want to sing softy with my guitar and not blow the house down
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Plz if you get time listen to ed sheeran song photograph I want to sing the chorus it's to high for chest and falsetto does not
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    He is singing the chorus in head voice. Not falsetto, which is airier, but head voice, with a medium amount of cord closure. You still need to sing all of the lower parts of this song in chest voice, but it can be a softer chest voice, rather than a belted voice.

    The chorus repeats a run on F#4, G#4, and A4 that, if you want to sing it with a little less heady sound than what Ed Sheeran is using, it would probably have to be done in a chesty (also known as "heavy") mix. That would require a lot of training and discipline in stretching your chest voice in order to have the high chest portion of the voice to mix-in. That would, however, be a lot less "belty" and therefore is probably what you're looking for. That won't come overnight, but it can be developed over time, if you're willing to put in the time and effort.

    The slider exercises at the end of the volume 2 workouts will help you to develop that part of your voice.

    All the Best!

    Bob
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    So if it still doesn't sound right in head voice I need to grow my head voice?or do you mean slideing from chest in more of a mix ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    I mean the higher you can slide up in your sliders with a chestier sound, the more you will be able to bring that chestier mix sound into your normal singing.

    Your head voice can grow, too, but the heady component isn't what I think you want. And I also think that you don't want a full chest sound either on parts like the chorus of Photograph. You want a thinner chesty sound that sounds like a beefier version of head voice, or actually something that you can't tell whether it's head or chest. That's a mix, and a chestier mix is more often mistaken for just a really high chest voice.

    Bottom line, you need to do all that you can to extend your chest voice up as high as you can, in order to be able to take a portion of the beef up top.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Thank you I promise you won't here from me for a while now I'm going to batter them sliders ☺one last big favour.so you can keep me inside the pocket of your ripped jeans ?can you change the vowels plz
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    We are the world Michael Jackson I can connect with "we are"and goes into falsetto as it slides down to "the world".I can sing it in full voice but that's not the way mj sings it can you explain what is going on plz highmtn
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Please point to a specific version and minute:seconds so I can get to the part you are talking about.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    It was him in studio on you tube.it's that soft sound that's how I want to sing ed sheeran prince loads of people sing like that I just don't understand what's going on.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Is it possible that I actually have a strong chest voice as I have been doing sliders for years and what I need to start doing is concentrating on my head voice ?
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I was doing a light connection before and I seemed to be able to drag my chest up from the bottom as if I pulled it up from the head it sounded okay does that sound like something you have done before ?
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Just forget everything I'm going to have to get a Skype lesson
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I can sing high notes without strayning but I don't sound right it's as if my high note sounds to high yet it's bang on the note I just think some people's voices aren't very good ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    @lenny1976,

    Please submit a basic LAH scale exercise. We're going all over the map and we haven't heard a note from you. Please let us hear you applying Ken's techniques and go from there.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    How do I do that
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Stand in front of your webcam and put it in record mode. Sing along to the basic lah scale. Save the file and upload it to YouTube. Copy the url from YouTube and paste the url into a post here. We'll click on it and listen to what you are doing and watch what you are doing.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I've no webcam I will have to do it at a later date
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Is a mixed voice just like chest voice yet with less effort?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    A mixed voice is a blend of high chest voice with low head voice, and yes, it requires less effort.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    So if you sing a high A note in a mixed voice how can that be a low head note because a A note is a High note in voice
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Your goal is to stretch your chest voice high notes as high as you can, and those notes will be in the range of your lower head voice. You will also, later, stretch your head voice notes as high as they can go AND stretch your lower part of your head voice down as LOW as you can go in head voice.

    You will end up with an overlapping of notes with your high chest notes and your low head notes.

    So let's say, for example, A4 (A above middle C) can be sung as a pretty high note in chest voice. That same note, A4, can also be sung as a head voice note, but it's close to the low end of the head voice register. Singing sliders helps you to become more adept through the range of overlap. Gradually you will become able to decide whether to sing a given note in this overlap range in either head, chest, or a blend of the two. That will take a lot of practice time to become adept in that skill. The greater the overlap, the more mixed range you will have. THAT is why you need to stretch both Chest voice, AND lower head voice to the max.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I've noticed if I warm up my head voice first my mix feels easier?also my head voice and my chest voice both reach the the same no the at the peak of my range ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    What note would that be, lenny?
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I can get to a F sharp above high c
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    F sharp above high c but I don't see how it's possible to extend any further either I thought if I could extend that more then lower notes might be easier or sound better .
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Well actually that's pretty good if you can get to F#5 in both Head and in Chest. If you keep exercising and getting better at relaxing, and at blending into a mix, you will probably be able to get up to even higher notes, given time. G5 or G#5 aren't that far away, but they would take time to develop.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Yeah I can get there on scales but just can't sing well can you sing whole songs in head voice without sounding false that's all I want to do is have that nice smooth rnb velvety sound not interested in rock now I'd like to sing quietly with a acoustic guitar thanks is your name bob by the way ?
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    Yes, my name is Bob. And Yes, you can sing in head voice all the time if that's what you want. It would probably be better if you also used some light chest voice along with your head voice sounds. Your chest voice does not have to be a powerhouse just because it's in the chest range. You can sing lightly in chest and blend seamlessly into a lighter head voice and do quite well with R n' B.

    It's actually much easier to sing that way. You have to work a lot harder to master the rock sounds, but everybody should choose their own preference of genres and sing the way they want to.

    IF you want to do a lot of mixed voice, however, you will want to get your chest voice up as high as you want to mix, and your head voice as low as you want to mix. Otherwise, you don't have what you need to mix with.

    I like R and B. I like Rock, too. I like to sing in a variety of styles. We all should learn what we need to learn to sing the way we want to sing. We get to choose.

    Bob
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    This is the problem I don't understand I know how to approach head voice I know how to approach chest voice how do you approach head voice with light chest it just doesn't make sense you must know we're I'm coming from also I can start in a highish note in head and when I go lower it breaks into falsetto cheers bob
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    I'm wondering maybe it's my head voice that needs to be built ?
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    Because if your singin a line in head voice and it starts higher and decend's lower in the phrase it ends up popping into falsetto or chest Wich sound wrong so you can't stay in head voice
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    If you are going to sing in head voice on high parts, then you have to be able to connect at the Passaggio both when you are going up in pitch and when you are going down into chest voice.
  • lenny1976lenny1976 Posts: 42Enrolled
    And the problem is people who can really sing well connect the passagio well because there voice is lighter and you can't tell the difference when they do it but people with heavier voices like me you can tell the two different voices.thats why not everyone is a good singer .
  • highmtnhighmtn Posts: 14,625Administrator, Moderator, Enrolled, Pro
    You must have skipped over the parts of the lessons that tell you to shed weight as you go up the scale. That's one of the things that help to make the upper chest and lower head voices match better.
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