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help my singing.

Hi big fan of ken tamplin, So i have gotten to the point to where i’ve expanded my chest voice almost to the point to where i’m in sort of a mixed voice at really high notes. how do I know when to move on to start using my head voice? i remember ken saying something like you could potentially lose notes on your chest register if you use head voice too soon. so when do i know i’m ready? Should I try to expand my chest voice lower before I start using head voice? because so far i’ve only expanded my chest really high. please someone help.

Comments

  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 2,167
    the best way would be you record a scale (and maybe even a piece of music) so we can hear what is going on exactly. with the course, i would guess that on average it takes people about 1,5 to 3 years to build up to the point where their chest voice is strong enough to not experience the atrophy you want to avoid (given a balanced workout regimen is continued, which is a must to avoid the said thing). the time frame is for the average starter without any real previous training, and i gather that from how long it takes people on the forum here
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Klaus_T heres a link to some lah scales

    although i am sitting in my car in the video so i don’t have as much abdominal strength, usually the highest note i can hit is a A#4 but the highest clean and comfortable note is a G#4. My lowest note is C2, which is where my vocal fry is. I would say i’m a tenor maybe a high tenor. Am I good to start training my head voice? or should i expand my chest further. and if so should I expand it lower or higher ?
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 2,167
    thanks for uploading the example. i don't think you are in full chest voice up top. i don't think your chest voice is built to a level where you are safe with doing head voice exercises. maybe @Wigs can second
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Klaus_T if i’m not in a full chest voice up top, does that mean i’ve been switching into head voice? or is that a mix voice?
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 2,167
    edited August 2021
    i am not sure what exactly it is, but in the early part of this scale, you sound like you release into a head voice sound pretty early on (as early as the top note of the second scale, i think). i don't know what you were shooting for there, so maybe it was on purpose. anyway, i think it would be good if you make sure that these lower notes are strong. the outsides of the range come with time and are not necessarily showing how strong your chest voice is.

    i would like to hear what @bentk thinks about this. do you think that @thedude838' is ready to move into head voice exercises, regarding the atrophy issue? i am not sure how to know for sure, and thought you would be able to help. thanks!
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    edited August 2021
    @Klaus_T in that exercise, at the very end of that lah scale i slip into my head voice just to show u the difference, right before the Lee scale. I think it might just sound like it at first because naturally I have a very high pitched voice. I may be wrong tho, i would also like someone else’s thoughts but thanks klaus !
  • WigsWigs Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 4,931
    At 31s you dont quite hit the right top note, its a bit flat which I assume is the A4 you are aiming for. Training your chest voice to go higher at this point is definitely recommended. At some point you will go into the head register above A4 but the idea here is to bring the chest sound with you. Keep it full, supported and in control, it should have plenty of resonance and none of a hooty flutey falsetto sound. @Klaus_T is correct in that I the early part of the scale you are not staying full chest on the sound but going to a bright head or light mix. For the G4 you are only just staying in chest. Keep working the chest voice for now, get your runners body nice and strong.
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    edited September 2021
    @Wigs I will definitely keep up training until I can finally hit a C5 in full chest. I also need to focus a lot more on staying in a full chest voice through the scale, not flipping into a light mix voice. Thanks for the response! I will keep you all updated on further progress! @Klaus_T
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Wigs @Klaus_T Although, I think I am going to start implementing head voice and bridging exercises to my daily practice. I’ve done a lot of research on whether or not I should wait to use head voice, and I’ve also asked many vocal coaches ( 7 to be exact). And they all give me the same response, to start training my head voice. Some of them said that it’s like going to the gym and only training your triceps. Other coaches said that you want to train all parts of the voice simultaneously in order to grow your entire voice and your bridges. Not a single other coach has told me to wait, in fact they even start out with training all parts of the voices, saying that only training chest will close of the head voice. No research or advice from the other coaches i’ve asked say to wait to use head voice, And i’ve already waiting to where my chest voice can go all the way to a G#4, I think i’ll be safe to start growing my head voice.
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 2,167
    @thedude838 that's fine, you can of course do whatever you want. we just tell you what we learn here
  • WigsWigs Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 4,931
    There might be some confusion here. As you exercise you want to train your chest to be strong and bring it up as high as you safely can for now with the goal of eventually stretching it further. However this is not the only type of exercise you should he doing and Ken mentions this as well in his YouTube videos though I cannot remember which ones. Alongside your chest exercises you should also be doing bridging exercises so you don't lopside your voice, or only train triceps as you say. Train your bridge to be smooth, and your chest to be strong.

    The difference with bridging exercises and exclusive head voice exercises is the purpose of them. Bridging is all about a smooth passagio and trying to bridge as late as possible in the scale. This sets you up for a strong mixed voice down the track.

    After many months or possibly a year or 2 then you start on exclusive head voice exercises. This will be more about bringing your headvoice way down into your chest register, since with your bridging you are likely already bring it very high. If you don't have a good chest foundation and train headvoice down low too soon, you will have a tendency to default to head voice early instead of bringing your chest voice up during chest exercises. This wide crossover of chest and head is what sets up mixed voice.

    So you are correct with the bridging, Ken teaches this in his course, and proceed with caution training headvoice too soon if you are still trying to grow your chest.
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Wigs Thanks for demystifying all this confusion i feel like I understand a lot more now, i’ll start implementing just bridging exercises to my daily practice. I will keep you all up to date on any further progress, but thanks again!!!
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    edited October 2021
    This is what i’m talking about, what i’ve been referring to in this post. Skip To 7:30 sec in to see what i’m talking about.



    skip to 7:30
  • WigsWigs Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 4,931
    I had to delete the video as per the terms and conditions of the forum.

    https://forum.kentamplinvocalacademy.com/discussion/4256/ktva-singing-forums-terms-of-use#latest

    I have seen that video before and what this person doesn't understand about the term atrophy is that Ken is talking about the ability to bring your chest voice higher. The E4 is a natural bridging point for guys, if you always default to head voice at that point, guess what? You lose the ability to take your chest vice any higher unless you keep that part of your voice strong. What you dont train you lose or never get. If you train to bench 100kg but stop your max rep at 70kg, how do you achieve your goal? If you dont train to keep your full range up above a D5, you lose ability to access it.

    As I said in the above post you train stretching chest voice separately and bridging from chest to head as late as possible in the scale. Both of these will make your full daily workout. Your voice has a memory and will take the easiest path when it can. If you dont keep a strong chest voice, you will default to a head or mix in songs that require full belts. This is the atrophy Ken refers to, the muscles lose the memory and ability to do what it needs to.
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Wigs thanks frl man. i’ll keep you updated on my future progress. good advice !
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Wigs @Klaus_T I would just like to come back to this thread and say that for awhile ive started to hit a plateau with my singing and not making as good as progress as i was before… until about a month or two ago, i started doing head voice exercises on top of my regular routine, trying to go as high and low as i can with my head voice. And let me just say, i remember ken saying that the head voice might tear at your chest voice and weaken it almost like it’s fighting for real estate on your voice over the chest voice. But for some reason the exact opposite has happened. my chest voice is now getting stronger again finally. No more plateau anymore. now i can belt notes i couldn’t before in my chest voice but without straining. And if i’m belting really high and i go a little light on the sound and allow more nasal resonance i get kinda of a mixed voice that’s actually usable. My head voice isn’t a flooty hooty falsetto anymore and there’s actually good chord closure. i can finally go from my lowest note in chest, all the way to my highest note in head voice with no breaks at all or cracks. Although i still need to work on my head voice a lot more but the progress so far in the last months have been insane. I will continue to do my regular chest workouts along with bridging exercises with my head voice workout. will keep you further updated.
  • WigsWigs Moderator, 2.0 PRO, 3.0 Streaming Posts: 4,931
    That's great news mate, keep it up! 👍🏼
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 2,167
    that's great. if you want to be extra safe, post an exercise or two for us to double check what you do is sustainable. tag us if you choose to do so
  • AmaliAmali Member Posts: 17
    @Wigs @Klaus_T thank you both for your feedback during this whole journey of mine.
  • Klaus_TKlaus_T Moderator, 2.0 PRO Posts: 2,167
    sure no worries :)
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